AI cheating

I see in this game comp cheats even more than in both Civ3 and SMAC.

~SDC~

Hm be careful before saying that. Plus, you can get a great deal more than 100% economy bonus from social improvements later on in the game. Some improvements give +50% on their own. Take over the planet and see what it says.

In the higher difficulty levels, the computer player do get an economic bonus. But as far as I know there were non for Intelligent and below.
Maybe that was it.
In the other levels I haven't noticed anything, and it seems to me that the AI play quite by the same rules we do, as the developpers stated.

~SDC~

It seems to me that at Incredible level, the computer AI gets some pretty big bonuses.

On the other hand, the human have the benefit of doing diplmoacy like a human, and not like a computer AI player. A big advantage for humanity.

This is of couse on Incredible.

First, espionage shows that comp has +205% Econ bonus

But this is really not important. Then taxes from planet reach 2*PQ of planet, they are start to take penalties. And it's almost impossible to get from a planet more than 4*PQ taxes.

There, comp somehow gets 9.78*PQ. This is impossible no matter that bonus he has. So, it's not only gains huge bonuses, GAME RULES DONT AFFECT COMPUTER PLAYERS!

~SDC~

I was really interested how comp gets more taxes from 5 sectors than i from 52 planets.

Well, with this level of cheating...

Say, in SMAC comp gets like *2 bonuses. Here it gets easily *2,5 more than you ever can get from a planet with ANY bonuses.

~SDC~

Before you go getting your panties in a bunch, try doing some research. It has been documented on this forum and others that below Intelligent, the AI is penalised economically relative to you, at Intelligent you and the AI are equal, and above intelligent, the AI gets economic bonuses. That is the sum total of the AI "cheating" and since it's a documented feature of the difficulty, calling it cheating is like the people who call the fact the AI knows where yellow stars are cheating.

The exact figures are as follows:
Difficulty Level / Advantage
Fool 50
Beginner 60
Sub-Normal 76
Normal 86
Bright 95
Intelligent 100
Genius 110
Incredible 140

I can't believe we're even having this discussion. It's a well known fact that the AI gets huge bonuses on incredible. Frobgoy has already discussed this in the forums and in the Library. Ellestar, perhaps you should educate yourself before making demands on Frogboy. Sheesh, it's people like you that could spoil Stardock's participation in these forums. Have some respect, will you?

Play on Intelligent or lower and the AI won't get any bonuses.

~SDC~

I'm respecting Frogboy, but how you don't understand?

It's not +40% ot economy or money or etc.

It simply means that you need 2,5 more maxed out PLANETS than comp on Incredible to reach same tax level. This is best computer bonus to economy i ever seen in TBS.

I don't understand why to give to comp that high bonuses on Incredible - it's just ridiculous. In any other game you can, with proper management, get better enconomy. Here it's just impossible as long as you have same number of planets. I understand that Incredible level is unfair, but this just makes no sense for me.

~SDC~

On incredible it's SUPPOSED to be really difficult to compete with the comps. Some players can handle it (I'm not one of 'em). The incredible intelligence level exists for them, not for you to whine about. (:(

Well, as a bit of reality checking, it's definitely not the biggest economy cheating in TBS, Civ2 has that title down with no competitors. Cities there didn't even build there stuff (or maintain it), it was materialized using dice rolls. If you've ever had a size 2 city with all its squares blockaded in Civ2 only to have it produce one starship component every 2 turns you know what I mean. And this cheat was global throughout all difficulties.

At levels above Intelligent the computer not only gets flat bonuses, if I understand it right they also get bonus attribute picks for their race. And of course they also have all the standard boosts that come with the game. So you get a comp AI with a racial +economy, a bonus to economy based on the difficulty level, a resource mining bonus, and a fully developed planet infrastructure and it's not hard for me to believe it could reach some really amazing numbers.

A better approach for this kind of thing in the future would be simply to report the numbers and ask Brad for an explanation, possibly they -are- too high (there are bugs in the game after all), but they might be dead on as well. I just pulled up a saved game I had, this is near the end of the game with all tech research, my biggest planet at size 39 is doing 163 BC income so the value you reported for an AI with additional picks and bonuses seems about right.

If you want the most even game possible, play on Intelligent, the higher difficulty levels are for those who are too good to be challenged by the AI in a fair fight, so the AIs get some significant boosts not in the spirit of cheating but in the spirit of providing better game play for those who are too good to get much enjoyment out of the lower difficulty levels. Yes, it's ridiculous, it's supposed to be.

Ellestar has been trolling "the AI is cheating" for quite some time. And it always seems that it is "cheating" on levels where the developers have specifically said the AI gets bonuses.

Ellestar, if you find any cheating on "Intelligent" level, please document it and let everyone know.

Thankfully i played only Civ I and Civ III

PQ39*4=156bc you got 163 this is possible, i got same numbers
PQ23*9.78=225bc is impossible (9,78 is impossible) under game rules

~SDC~

Speaking of AI advantages/disadvantages...

Can someone please confirm of deny that the AIs can allocate spending (social, military, tech) per *planet* (and aren't limited to one set of empire wide spending sliders). I thought I read this in one of the "how the AI micromanages better than humans" threads back near the begining (now lost off the bottom).

Thanks!


~SDC~

I wouldn't label him as a troll, there is a language issue here and it's not good to assume things in that kind of situation. I think this is more of a problem in perception: Ellestar, the computer cheats at levels beyond Intelligent. This cheating is by definition in violation of the normal game mechanics. The only way this cheating would be wrong would be if the cheat value isn't what Stardock wanted it to be (i.e., perhaps they only intended that planet to have 200 BC and it has too much, or maybe they intended it to have 300 BCs and it actually has too little). But the computer producing impossible numbers from the viewpoint of normal game mechanics is what the levels beyond Intelligent are all about. It would be strange if you didn't see it, as it is supposed to be there.

Well am a Munchkin and so i am a fanatic of the rules, so i become mad then someone playing not under the rules. If you think that it's fair, than perhaps it's fair to me too.

But current situation tells me that i never can win in *fair fight* vs Incredible AI. This is mostly a gameplay issue - game doesn't allow to win in a *fair* way. That's why i wanted to see a reply about it. But i don't want to play on Intelligent difficulty - well i feel that i can play better than comp. So, maybe it will be better to try Genius?

*fair* means not using this, or at least not using too much: better starting location, cheap tactics, using standart AI disadvantages etc.

~SDC~

Ellestar,

I see what you're saying about wanting a 'fair fight' at high levels of difficulty, but I kind of think you are being a bit harsh to Stardock here.

No AI (at the moment) will ever be able to be as good as the best of human players - as it will always be handicapped by having to have it's behaviour pre-specified. Now Stardock are obviously trying bery hard to make the AI as clever as possible (inside the rules) - witness the new Arcean AI changes, which just provide 'smarter' tactics. However this will take time and effort.

As I understand it the bonuses given to AI at higher levels are designed just to escalate the challenge for those super-good players out there (not me!). And I totally agree with Vorlin that you would not expect to have all the bonuses given visible.

Bottom line - if you can cruise past incredible AI's then the AI is not good enough to beat you *fairly* - yet! Just enjoy the game at whatever level tests you, and wait for the day when the AI starts running exploits on us!

Paul

Ellestar, any level about "Intelligent" is not intended to be a fair fight.

If you want a fair fight, play "Intelligent". I, for one, would be extremely interested in hearing of any AI cheating you find on this level

Frankly, I have my own questions on how someone is winning via a military conquest at gigantic sized galaxies.

Why don't you share with us your strategy for being able to actually conquer all other players at the hardest level.

I think the game is pretty easy to win even at genius level. But Incredible level is almost impossible (but I did it anyway).

I think it was an error in judgment that the game developers created so many layers of difficulty below intelligent and only two above it.

Clearly, the ability of the game player was underestimated.

It's here ¹35 http://www.galciv.com/browser/msgboard.asp?BoardID=GF&id=52458&cmd=showall

It's fun to play 2 times with almost 1 tactics, but on 3rd...
I'll try to change it somewhat to get better results... But overall i don't know how i can win if i will be near comps (perhaps i'll win vs 1 comp near me if it will have bad respawn, and others will be far enough).

~SDC~

Frogboy,

Winning via military conquest on gigantic galaxies is very easy. Just turn off the "cultural victory" option, and go mega-culture. Once the last enemy planet defects to your side, you are considered to have won by military conquest.

And I have also wondered why when an enemy planet defects to my empire, the tax revenues drop to 1/2 of what they were before, even when I have a significantly bigger economy bonus than the computer player did. I haven't actually done any testing yet to figure out what the reason is, tho.

Actually I have noticed that if you turn cultural victory off, you can basically assimilate other empires without firing a shot, something I did, where I ended up assimilating everyone to get my win. Had I had cultural victory turned on, the victory would've came much sooner (who knows I've might have got a better score as a result).

Bob say Ellestar need to take off underwear, wash underwear, put back on and play game. If not like game, not play game. Is no cheat. Is doing what Frogboy said would do.Ellestar need to calm. Bobo not like to see Ellestar bust vein in neck over game.

Let me say it again: I am sure I'm not alone in wondering what the specific strategy is for winning on the hardest level.

How do you survive? Maybe I'm just a bad strategy gamer, but I cannot win at the highest level. I suspect there is a very specific strategy involved in doing it.