ship combat - one thing I really hate :(

from Stardock Forums
GlaCiv should be superb game for me, but ship combat totally ruined all fun...

I have no problems with non-customizable ships designs (they are ok). I have no problems with lack of tactic in ship combat (this is not tactical-combat simulator but strategic game as it was described by Frogboy in another post). BUT I have serious problem with ship combat mechanism itself. This idea of only one ship vs. one ship combat seems to be heavily unrealistic, little bit stupid and above all its SAD (i will describe later).

First of all this stupidity and unrealitsticity (wonder if such weord exists:). Ten Drednoughts (me) vs One Drednouht (enemy) (for example). If the enemy has some bonuses so his Dreadnought is better than mine, my first attacking ship will be destroyed (no way how to prevent this). Same in combat of 100 dreadnoughts vs 1 drednought (or 100 frigates vs 1 drednought etc.). This is really stupid and unrealistic because in reality 10 ships will probably wipe out single one from the sky faster than one can imagine. And know for the SADNESS, its same problem I really hate sending my first ship and its crew to combat they cannot win. There is no chance for them and they are sacrificed in order to weaken enemy ship (hmm... Has someone same association like me? Kamikadze pilots in WW2 or suicidle attackers killing US troopers in Iraq now.) Same problem with troop combat. Combat transport has capacity 5 millions. I am able to send dozens of them towards enemy planets, but if they have large population and relatively same advantage, every single trooper from my first transports will be killed...

And the solution is so simple. Its not necessary to implement tactical combat with additional screens etc. Allowing ships to be grouped into fleets will be sufficient (hand to hand with minor updates of algoritm which resloves combat).

2,198 views 70 replies
Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
I really have to agree with you on this point. Last night I was in a battle with the Yor and I had a frigate while they had a stack of like 10 corvettes and they just kept suiciding each one into me as I wiped them out 1 by 1. I think if they hit me with all 10 at once they would have won. Plus it would be great if you could make fleets with fighters and frigates and such using combined arms methods but I think that may be getting to advanced for what they wanted. But it does state in the manual that you can do battle with fleets but I think it fails to mention it is always 1 on 1, I do hope this is fixed cause I don't really like (but love the game and wont stop me from playing) the whole suicidal ship battles
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
Fleet-to-fleet combats (as grouped using the form fleet button) would not only speed combat up, but would also give eariler, weaker (but faster) ships a new lease of life, and possible add some tactical depth to the game. Would be a worthwhile addition if the AI can be programmed to use this effectively.
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree with the notion. Although Battle Transports can each carry more troops into a ground combat, that shouldn't prevent the same effect as 10 stacked normal transports...
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
There is a bit of fleet tactic available. Stack high offense/low defense ships with low offense/high defense ships - Starfighters with battle axes for example, or starfighters on top of bases.

The AI is a bit deficient in building up fleets right now, but developing AI's is both HARD and a never-done job - there is always more things to add to it. I think that's one reason why the Metaverse exists - to let Brad see what strategies people use and try to tveak AI/game mechanics to keep the game challenging.

As it is, the AI is heads-n-shoulders better than any other 4X game out there, but it still has plenty of weaknesses. Fortunately, while we wait for the AI to grow smarter, we can always add some extra handicaps - try winning as evil vs an all good galaxy AND leaving the UP council ASAP, for example :-).


~SDC~
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
I somewhat agree...but...if your 10 dreads were up against 1 dread with superior technology then chances are that the superior dread could take one of yours with it.

Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
Yeah chances for the more developer one... but there is no chance for the first attacker. And it can be 10.000 dreads vs single one with same results (the first one is destroyed).
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
I must add fuel to this fire. I agree that the fleets should get combined firepower bonuses when stacked. IN a 1 vs. 10 dreadnaught fight, if all ships were to fire one round the single ship should die before it can inflict enough damage to destroy a single opposing ship, unless the tech. gap is huge.
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree. I do not miss tactical combat (ala SEIV and MOO) nor do I miss customising ships (actually I do a bit ;p ). However, allowing the formation of fleets in such a way that the fleet attack in unison is a good idea.

Furthermore, this aspect will make GalCiv better than Civ in terms of combat.
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
One the reason combat works this way is to try to get rid of the one super fleet going round destroying everything and never being killed.
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
Also words like stupid do nothing to forward your case.
Just calling something stupid because you do not like the way it works is not a good idea. Present your case in detail explain why you think it would make the game more enjoyable but try the leave out the negative phrases are you might stand a better chance of getting changes.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
How about implementing it as tech called say "Combined Arms doctrine" (maybe several levels of that which would allow ships attacking or defending, while in a stack (as well as in orbit), a combat bonusfor each ship. The cost would be entire stack must have >2 MP available for all ships, which would be use dup (1 for the attack =1 combined arms). defenders would get a combined arms bonus automatically -- if they have teh appropriate techs (this would make it be a bit better to defend planets too since later ships tend to be a bit defense poor)

This way the AI will still be able to handle it as it doesnt involve making "fleet algorithms" only another (highly valued) tech and AI preference for attacking in groups (which i have seen it do)

Dawg
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
I try to think of it more along the lines of a board game in this regards, in its current state. It is not realistic, so instead, I try to think of it as if it is something you simply have to keep in mind, and strategize around it.

But I also believe that stacked ships would make more sense. Ala the HOMM series, you have a stack.. they have a stack. Depending on the # of your ships, and their strength, you may take out some of their vastly superior ships, and damage several more. And this would make having things like satellites more useful and logisitcal. You would need to keep an eye our (as would the AI) for huge fleets, so you can gather your own forces.

I don't believe 10,000 ships that don't have a chance to beat a vastly superior ship one on one should all go to their slaughter.. that's silly, they should take him out regardless, unless that ship had a shield tech or something that you simply could not penetrate with your current weapony. :p

And in fact.. that *would* be a cool tech to add. Currently there is no shield that is impervious to certain attacks. This would be cool.. it would give the defensive techs some merit, the higher you go up. Then 10,000 ships may *not* have a chance.. if you didn't upgrade your weapons high enough, and they did upgrade their shields. :D

Anywyas.. I agree, stacking in combat would be nice.

fleabitfox
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
JavaScout, sorry but sending people towards inevitable death when you are many times stronger than your opponent (but without chance to use this) is really stupid. And it doesnt matter its only game....
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
Fleets of tranports do stack - if you make them a fleet before you attack. You get to attack with all the people in the transports, but you only lose one transport. Very useful.
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
Hmm, dont know this but it makes me more curios why ship combat works in another way than transport+ground combat...
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
Because in ground combat you do not get any extra bonus from those extra troops. It just speeds up the fighting as you don't need go through several battles. But at the same time it increases the luck factor to both ways: e.g. you get very high advantage, that same advantage is used for all the troops and same with low advantage. With several separate attacks each of them has their own throw and probably different results.

Periz
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
The "super fleet" can be hard to beat, but it should be a factor in the game. You make sacrifices to your overall strategy to have a super fleet, especially in larger galaxies. I.E. weaker defense of areas where fleet is not patroling. In anycase it should be modified to allow for mas damage from multiple ships rather than one ship firing at a time.
If you are concerned with super fleets, you could always deter them by having a modified anti matter missle that does stack (area) damage (like a nuke).
Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
There will be no fleet bonuses in GalCiv. The net result would always be the same - each side would run around with their own mega fleet.

The AI doesn't make "fleets" because there's no advantage to them. They are there for human convenience in moving lots of ships at once.

~SDC~
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
On the topic of suicide mission to weaken enemy ships: Isn't that what the anti-matter missile was made for! ;)
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
I just reloaded a save game and tried the transport stack. Four transports with 1 billion soldiers each. Was finnaly able to achieve military victory, barely, but did. So this tactic does work. And is a nice time saver as well.

~SDC~
Reply #23 from Stardock Forums Top
You know, even though I had asked for this the day the game was officially released, I have to agree with Frogboy. The way I play MoO/HoMM etc is to have one big nasty force having its way wherever it goes, and a number of small harassing forces keeping my opponent off balance enough to prevent him from doing the same. I don't do that in GalCiv, at least not to the same degree. Once I start getting Avatars or better, my top of the line ships are usually running around in pairs at most, so that one can protect the other if it gets heavily damaged. Unless my opponent has something way up there, I usually run Overlords around alone.

Maybe a fleet like CivIIIs Army would work, where you're limited to 3 (or 4 with the right wonder) units inside the fleet would make it not too overpowering, but it would still seriously alter the dynamic of the game.
Reply #24 from Stardock Forums Top
Im in complete agreement with most ppl here; this is a very important feature. while I understand the spearmen vs tanks arguement from Civ 3, I think the point is that traditional numerical advantages are being disregarded here. I don't think simply adding the attack points is the answer, because people would have no incentive to upgrade; rather, there needs to be some sort of modifier so as to take advantage of numerical superiority. Im curious as to whether you think there is a middle ground to this , Brad...
Reply #25 from Stardock Forums Top
My guess here is that the AI wouldn't be able to handle these stacks. If this were in MP, I'd push for changes.

Personally, I want the AI to have a good chance of beating me, and stacks probably would just roll over the AI to easily.