Awsome idea? » Forum Post by Shiner770

Unfortunately, this would take up entirely too much RAM. Because the game engine loads all files at the start, can you imagine the electronic heart attack loading so much material would cause the game? If there's a Sins 2, maybe it'll be possible in that.

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hmm... interesting. I'll take that as an challenge. If it can run on my single I'll put it on here.

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It's no challenge. I'm telling you it won't work because the game will crash; once it hits 2gb of RAM, you're done. Normal Diplomacy is skirting the edge of that usage, which was the reason for creating the Optimization Project. I'm sorry to rain on your parade, but, as I said before, we can hope something of this scale is possible in a second installment.

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Ah

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Im not really sure whats hitting the 2 gig limit worse, the amount of content or the amount of units. The amount of new models or meshes is big because of all the texture sheets that goes with them. If you could use existing textures for new models, that would help a lot. The number of races could be 50 if you use the existing models as the rest of the info is mostly text.

My mod will start with 6 races but will share quite a few models for now as I test out the ram usage.

Theoretically, you might have a lot of races but dont use all 10 at once. 1 game could be empire vs federation. Next game could be galactica vs tec. Just dont load it all.

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The amount of different units.

7DS mod has 12 different races so far but as myfist said uses 10 at the time. Selected by mod team. Current build is 7DS2.5 for entrenchment (still in alpha) but according to the leader Danman version 3.0 which will be for diplomacy will be "custom race build".

In theory you could have 100s of races and before game you will have race selector sort of program in which you will select races you wanna play with and that program will create mod with races you selected.

The thing is if you have 10 different races and their frigates are sort of spread (multiple races use same ships) you are quite safe with hitting 2 GB limit. But as soon as you go unique ships for each race trouble start.

Another problem is that for instance if you don't play with advent in game, game will still load everything that advent needs to play as it is in game. I think this is hard coded in the game engine. So game loads everything from each race regardless if it's in game or not. That goes same if you have 10 different races. And thats hugging most of memory....

There is large address aware program that let SINS use 3.5 gig of memory and it is confirmed that they work for SINS. When I played 7DS before using that program max map I could actually finish was 4 player map. On 6 player map game crashed 1h in the game. Hitting 2 gig was main culprit. With large address aware I can finish 8 player map if I'm fast and use small fleets. Also all my settings are on minimum.

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can't a mod be created for every single race that is added???so i have 10 different races in 10 different mods...all of them compatible with each other...and if i want to play ''race6'' versus ''race9'' , i only load these 2 mods- "race6" and "race9"...that's what i did...and it works perfectly..and i play Sins on a pc with only 1 gb of ram...and i have noo problem..

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and if you go into the gameinfo folder and you delete or change the name of , let's say, playertech entity file, and play a game Vasari versus Advent, the game will only load these 2 races, right? cause it can't find the Tech race file...tell me if i'm wrong...so in my case, with only 1 gb of ram, i can have 100 different races, as long as i load them separately...and i only play 1 versus 1....or 1 versus 1 versus 1 tops...

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No you cant because ..... Why you cant and how its supposed to work. Those are not my ideas those are ideas of Fileosoft and all credit goes to him

Pasting from forum 7DS

Edit: I did bold-ed and underline-ed things that are reason why your way of thinking doesn't work

Option 3 would be to try Filesoft's "dynamic mod" alternative.

Filesoft, your "dynamic mod" sounds like quite the project though. Sounds like basically you would have to completely re-write the game engine. Quite an ambitious task... You think its too much to handle?

It is not needed to modify the game engine... more, it will be requested that none of the original sins files are modified... you need to add one race picture, you use your own filename.tga...

The .exe will be a launcher software... where you choose the races that you will use ( max of ten ) before starting the game... the starter.exe will create a new mod using data from a archive... these mod will only have the race selected... the starter will create the needed english.str and the galaxy file from seed section in the archive... use some of the harpoo code for create the entity manifest... once done, the launcher will start directly sins... you will need to enable the mod created by the launcher... and start a game where you are only able to use the race selected in the launcher ( max is 10 but since the max player is 10, it is perfect )...

how it will work... you will have a common mod like solar sins was at the base of the first 7ds... along with one mod for each single race...

the main problem will be similar filename in diferent race mod... so we will need to impose some convention for races mod... like using own taga for portrait, icon, etc... having by example the first 3 letter of any filename of the race mod being a unique identifier... by example, TEC, TCA, VAS, ORI, ROG, etc...

At first, it can be some work for rename file in a structured way, specialy, correct all reference to them in the entity file... for the english.str of the race mod, it will only be the difference between the common mod and the races mod... the starter will simply copy the common mod in a mod folder called dynamic mod after cleaning these or create it if it don't exist... material from all selected race mod will be copied to the dynamic mod folder too... for the english.str, the launcher will merge the english.str of the common mod with all differential english.str from the selected race mod...

Same method will be used for the galaxy file...simply the structure and the merging will be a little more complex...

last stept will be using a tools already created by Harpo for generate the entity manifest...

In fact, if it was Linux, and using Bash ( command scripting, similar to the DOS .bat file, but more powerful )... it will be very easy since it involve only to move file, merge/read/insert in txt file, read filename for generate the manifest...

like say before, the main problem will be the use of unique filename for each races else conflict will appear... Sure that Dan know the problem... specialy when he wish add a new race created by other to the 7DS mod... similar filename but different content !!! more order and structure will be needed from the race modders...

Result will be a mod archive who store the common ( like solar sins ) and numerous races... in fact, you will be limited by the capacity of your harddrive... it can be hundred or thousand of race... it will not be a problem for online game... if 10 people wish to play online, they only need to know what race will be used, and input them in the starter... the mod generated will be identical for each of them... so, no online problem... more, in some way, it work like a "load on demand" since the dynamic mod generated from the huge archive with all races will only have the common mod and the race used...

In short, these method resolve a lot of problem, change nothing in the Stardock/Ironclad sins code... it simply change the way we mod now for sins... in fact, it is a better way modding... once the system is running, any people who create a new races using the new structure need only to release his race only... player will add them in the archive... and we can make the starter to check at each start if need race directory was added.... it is a way to virtually merge all the races who was created in all the mod for sins...

Maybe one day Ironclad will approach you and Dan and offer you guys jobs though. Haha

Maybe Dan because he make all the work... me, i am only the guy who think outside the box, why try to make thing who is say to be impossible... in these case, i have simply think outside the game... these method emulate a "load on demand", don't touch the original game, remove the problem of the 2gb limit ( 7DS was with 13 races, all loaded, now the max will be 10 races loaded with common mod )... for now, it is only a idea... i already plan difficulty for generate the galaxy file... you cannot simply merge, you need to insert part at very specific place... and not being a coder, it is the file that i don't yet understand...

EDIT : In fact, i think that these method is really in the spirit of 7DS... only difference will be that Dan will not fight each day for trying merge thing in 7DS and hit software limit... we can provide the common mod, the starter exe and other modders can provide they of races ( adapted to follow some conventional rules )... adding a race to the starter will be made by simply adding a race directory to the archive mod...

For now, i only see one backside to my idea... if you wish make a new game with other races, you need to quit sins and relaunch the stater who will delete everything in the dynamic mod folder and create a new mod with the new desired races

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i should have said in my last post that by adding other races, all i did was adding other ships from other mods, and i added a playerrace for each race...that's all...all races that i added are using the existing technology trees and the existing race pictures..i am not a modder , all i can do is add stuff to the game, or modify stuff that is already there...i can't "make" stuff...so if you make , let's say , an entity file called "PlayerFed" , and you replace the tech original ships with the ships from star trek, but using the same research tree, and you add the coresponding text to the "entity.manifest" and to "String\English", when you start the game, you should have another race from star trek...it's not that hard actually...

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I understood is that you wanted to load different mods (each mod consist of only one race) and play as unique mod.

For that you need to change entitity.manifest, english.str and galaxy file. You of course can change those files before the game as you are doing now and mod will work. You are actually making one mod and loading only that one.

If you do it before the game you are doing same thing as .exe will be supposed to do and you do it manually. For MP its hard to believe that all players will know how to do it.

But what I am saying you cannot have mod for each race and just load different "mods - races" (for example 5 different mods and each consist of only one race) in order to achieve complete mod with 5 chosen races. Those files need to be changed or include all those races but then dev.exe starts to complain about files missing etc.

Add borg civilization with its cube ships and if you use unique ships that federation has .... things start to get complicated. Not straight away but add romulans, dominion. ferengi + all other races with unique ships you will start encountering problems with 2 gig limit. And when you reach high number of races (read more than 8) your mod gets massive and its hugging more and more memory and you need to start choosing what you want game to load.... And those are only races where are different planets....

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and that's why i only play small games with 20 planets max and only 3 races max...and when i said i have 10 different races in 10 different mods, i didn't mean that i load them all at once...only 2 races at a time... so the game doesn't use so much ram...i know that in a game with multiple races like 7DS , if you play 1 versus 1, the game loads all the other races too, even if it doesn't need them, ...but you can also change some "playerrace" files so the game doesn't find them and doesn't load all the races:) if you play only 1vs1

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I think all you would need to change is the manifests but I need to test that. I was thinking along the same lines as having 10-20 races but a small GUI that pics which manifests to use before the game starts then loads the game.

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Unfortunately, it would take a lot more than a simple manifest change, though I wish this were true. Once a manifest no longer references files that are still in the appropriate folders, the dev exe spits out a whole slough of errors, including minidumps. The mod contents and the manifests must match.

If this is mod idea is truly being considered, my suggestion would be to create a base mod folder with all of the common/shared files that are necessary as well as your basic races. Then create a separate minimod for each of the additional races. When you want to play with a set of races, just load those minimods. The drawback to this approach is that everyone has to have the same mods loaded in a multiplayer game. The selection order of the races might also prove to be an issue. They could be sorted out 0-9 (or however many you'll have), and the game might recognize 0, 3, 6, 7, and 8 and arrange them into 0-4. If not, that selection order number would need to be adjusted each time races are switched out.

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you can have different manifest files for every 2 races you wish to load:)...you must have a lot of manifest files for every combination of 1versus1 from all of the 10 races, but i think it can be done... so i have a mainfest file with all the entity files from all the races...and if i want to play race 2 versus race 5, i take the manifest file an i delete every reference to all other races except race 2 and 5...you understand what i'm saying ?..please correct me if i'm wrong........edit: i just erased 2 playerrace entity files from a mod with 4 races, so now i have only 2..but i didn't modify the manifest file...and the game runs just fine..with only 2 races.. so the mod contents and the manifest don't have to match..

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I have been looking over the optimization project and thought up only using 2 races form 4 shows each. I probably can share textures with some of them. (fed, They are all gray with blue stuff on them)

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As I understand and as in which direction debate about dynamic mod is going you have all files that you need in separate directory somewhere on HD and exe makes new mod with build up manifest from main game and each race. Same is done with rest of the files that need to be changed. All files needed are then copied or moved to mod folder where you have new (just build) mod and game starts with that mod that was build just moments ago.

Mystic is right that dev exe spits a lot of errors if files for some races are missing or paths lead to nowhere...

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The ironic thing is that there’s been so much discussion and thought put into how to break the 2gb limit, when the only mod I’m aware of that’s come close to that limit is 7DS.

And its hit that limit not because of the number of races they have or the number of ships, effects, whatever, it’s because that mod is so bloated with redundant and useless files its almost comical. There are multiple versions of the same texture, of which only one is being used and the rest presumably there for backup purposes or something. The vast majority of their skins are 2048x2048 yet contain not enough detail to warrant such a huge resolution and could be downsized to 1024x1024 or even less without a noticeable dip in quality.

If all the effort that has been put into working on these complicated solutions had instead been used to actually optimize that mod you wouldn’t have any of these problems.

I mean, didn’t 7DS start out as a collection of various mini-mods? Now it’s grown into such an unmanageable entanglement of conflicting files that they’re discussing breaking it back down into various mini mods?

This isn’t rocket appliances.

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So 7DS is run like the Government. Dont forget that Ironclad also has many unused files, over sized textures and many many spelling and bad file locations.

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All textures were minimized and they are in dds format....

About 3 month ago they started adding solutions from Major Stres TSOM. And it still hits 2 gig limit very quickly....

I mean, didn’t 7DS start out as a collection of various mini-mods? Now it’s grown into such an unmanageable entanglement of conflicting files that they’re discussing breaking it back down into various mini mods?

Yes it started as collection of mini mods but main reason why they are thinking about dynamic mod is because each race (currently they are at number 12) has unique ships which aren't used for any other race. Well there is TALO which is rock/crystall race and uses rock ships which are essentially asteroids.

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Quoting Mystic Angel,

reply 14

Unfortunately, it would take a lot more than a simple manifest change, though I wish this were true. Once a manifest no longer references files that are still in the appropriate folders, the dev exe spits out a whole slough of errors, including minidumps. The mod contents and the manifests must match.

If this is mod idea is truly being considered, my suggestion would be to create a base mod folder with all of the common/shared files that are necessary as well as your basic races. Then create a separate minimod for each of the additional races. When you want to play with a set of races, just load those minimods. The drawback to this approach is that everyone has to have the same mods loaded in a multiplayer game. The selection order of the races might also prove to be an issue. They could be sorted out 0-9 (or however many you'll have), and the game might recognize 0, 3, 6, 7, and 8 and arrange them into 0-4. If not, that selection order number would need to be adjusted each time races are switched out.

This would be the logical way to do it. A root mod and then a separate mod for each race. There's one problem though... GalaxyScenarioDef. It would have to be in the root mod and it would have to contain the pertinent information of all the possible races. Since you'd be referencing racial files that aren't supposed to be included in the root mod, you'd get errors with "unable to find file".

The only solution I can think of is having a "fake" version of each race in the root mod as well. Basically you'd have all the entity files for each race, but in the root mod they would all use stock Sins models and resources. I suppose you wouldn't need all the entities for each race, just the ship/structure ones you might have to reference in GalaxyScenarioDef (you certainly wouldn't need all the research entries). Essentially, they'd only add the entity data to the footprint and none of the texture/model overhead - which should be fairly small. You're racial minimods would then include the "real" version of each race, with the unique models/textures specified in the entity files contained in the minimod. Essentially you'd be "overwriting" the placeholder data for the racial ships in the root mod as you enabled the minimods.

Using the above scenario, you would have to ensure that the root mod get's loaded at the bottom of the priority list and that your racial minimods would must not contain a GalaxyScenarioDef. That would also mean that the racial minimods could NOT be used as standalones, which isn't really an issue except it could create some confusion.

This method would require no modification or crazy preloaders for the game engine. Just a little more work on the modder's part, a little user education for mod users and a (very) slightly more complicated set up. There is, however, no solution to having make sure that all multiplayer participants had all the same mods loaded. I actually don't think order will matter, as I believe (but don't hold me to it) that the combined checksums don't differ when two mods are loaded in opposing order.

-dolynick

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