tyr222

Join Date 04/2008

+17

diplos nerf on early game strategy

and the diplo skill paradox

first off let me state this isnt a bash on diplo. i like diplo over all, i like the faster speeds and the pacts. this is just some food for thought on nerfing the feed rushes. maybe its good and i just dont like it because it takes the team strategy central focus away from me and forces me to consider using other players more specificly to come up with effective team strategy. let me explain.

in vanilla and entrenchment my reputation as skilled would get me tons of immidiate feed when i was in danger or in a position to exploit a weak link, thus amplifying the perception of my skill. now in diplomacy were you cant feed early i (and everyone at some point) sometimes get doubled and even tripled immidiatly cause inevetable uncounterable death. the suddon lose of feed is surely swinging the perception of my skill and other supposed super players the other way (thankfully, now i hope you all will be a little less scared to face me or let me team with a DT). though i pride my self on my survival skills its hard to imagine anyone surviving 6 capitol ships with excess of 25 bombers on a homeworld with in a few short minutes of game play with no feed. ive been on the giving and recieving end of these rushes repeatedly and its my opinion that it take little skill or micro to rush but outstanding micro, focus, intuition, and just luck to survive.

i see the intent with the research for feed change, but i believe on multi-player 5v5 (my favorite games) 1 team can gain an outstanding advantage based on the map layout (even more so than before) beacuse the player who is in a "suicide slot" on the map is guarenteed death save major mistakes on his neighbors parts. i belive earlier feed give more stategic and decisive team play. let me paint an example

map layout is team A and B scatter 4-2-1-3 team A having the group of 4 in a row and then a suicide player. ive seen this layout several times in diplomacy and with skilled player the suicide player dies every time without fail. quickly turning the game into an inevitable 4v5 within minutes. in a skilled game this is all but game over as soon as it starts thanks to poor map generation. were it with early feed the 4 side could surely feed the suicide player to a quick star base and still a difficult surivial but the game is going to be won by quick thinking and sound stratagy rather than being given to one team too easily. being in this situation with a well fed suicide slot me and my DTs would likely play of the resulting deficientcies of the group of 4s flanks leaving the suicide alone. 3 of our players would feed the 2 fighters on the flanks of the group of 4. letting the suicide player live to knock the group of 4 down to 2. (possibly ive been know to advicate all 3 feeding one player to topple the flank desicively and even push through to a feeder)

the problem was that individuals took it to heart after they lost to a well fed opponent, which i believe is wrong. because this is a stratagy game and when you playing a team game, you should recognize well played and executed plans as a whole and not be upset that you as an idivudual got beaten. its possible to be mopped up individually and still feel skilled and accomplished if your team as a whole pulled off the win.

thus in my opinion just as star bases made sins more mindless and less strategic, so has the attemp to even out eveyones incomes. but in the grand scheme i still like diplo more than entrenchment f

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I love the new set up. I think it shows more of real skill rather than feed skill.

I agree some changes probably need to happen. The doubled suicide spot now is almost always death. If you are in suicide spot between 2 capable players-start migrating. Feed won't be coming in time.

Maybe make feed tech available with 3 of ANY lab. This way a "front" person could still shovel a little to a needing ally.

But, one could also say the stratagy isn't lessened. Only changed.

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

map layout is team A and B scatter 4-2-1-3 team A having the group of 4 in a row and then a suicide player.

That situation will quickly become a 5 v. 4 with the 5-man team having 6 starting areas worth of real estate. Can you say gg?

I think Diplomacy would really benefit from custom maps to prevent just that sort of thing.

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Make it happen dirty!!! =]

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I do like Zoomer's idea of making feed research require three of any labs. I think researching feed is fine, but currently the higher requirements mean that the surrounded ally is essentially screwed.

Alternatively, the option for 'fixed' positions would enormously help. In Age Of Empires, you can set teams so that they are all located near each-other. It'd be fantastic for SOASE, and likely end map-screwings.

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thus in my opinion just as star bases made sins more mindless and less strategic...

I hear this from people quite a bit (you, Krath, etc). I have a serious bone of contention with this, because it is incorrect.

You guys are confusing strategy with tactics. Starbases absolutely provide for more strategy. I rather enjoy this, because I am more of a strategy player, and when I bought this game I was led to believe that it was a strategy game.

However, starbases in general provide for less tactical play (i.e. micro) when dealing with the starbase itself. That's what you guys are complaining about. You are tactical players who in general play the game online as a tactical clickfest with maxed out speeds and what not, and you would rather the game tilt even more towards the tactical clickfest side and away from the strategic.

I have no issue with your gaming preferences (tactical over strategic), merely with your choice of words. When you guys say starbases and the like make the game less strategic, what you really mean is they make the game less tactical. (Also, I quibble with your choice of word "mindless," as providing for more strategic options in the game is hardly mindles, but whatever.)

At any rate, I'm somewhat surprised that people are saying the lack of feed in the suicide spot means gg. The reason is, I've rarely seen a suicided player fed (I don't have quite the number of games you have online, but trust me I have a ton of games), and I myself have never been fed as a suicide, nor have I ever asked for any feed. I always figured the rationale for not feeding a suicide player was that it was a waste of resources to prop up some lone guy on the other side of the map, but it was always just a guess because I never asked anyone. All I know is, I've rarely seen a suicided player fed, and I've never been fed as a suicide. In other words, Diplomacy doesn't seem to have changed anything from my perspective in regards to the suicide spot and feeding (they didn't get fed before with Entrenchment, they don't get fed now with Diplo).

I guess it's possible that you are always fed as a suicide because the team figures losing you would be a critical loss. Or, they just figure feeding you is alawys a good investment, whether you are suicide or not. This may be the case with other elite DT-types as well.

Either way, we should think twice about tweaking the game when the issue seems to revolve around "map." This Diplo feed issue you are bringing to the table seems to be more about map than about feed. Perhaps the first solution is to play on non-random maps, where there is a certainty of no map fuck?

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The suicide slot is also affected by the large amount of skirantra scramble bomber spam that happens now. Starbasing to hole up is not as much of an option because you can have buttloads of bombers to kill your fledgling SB without the benefit of feed to get it up to a level where its actually beneficial rather than wasted money.

[_]-Greyfox

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

Quoting Z00MERS,

reply 3

Make it happen dirty!!! =]

You don't need me to make it happen, Zoomers. Just host and promote some of my maps. Darvin and other people have also released some good maps though I'm not as familiar with them. (Note that Circle of Death and Death-a-Whirl are currently slighly broken.) Just tell people to go to http://TinyURL.com/Sins9 to get the auto-installer package:

Here are some good ones for 5v5:

The Most Pit 5v5
Warring Systems 5v5
Red Crush-2 5v5
Gateway to Paradise 5v5
Asteroid Belt 5v5 v03

Here are some for 4v4:

Gateway to Paradise 4v4
Gateway to Paradise 4v4-v2 (middle is a little different)
Asteroid Belt 4v4 v03
Diamond maps (they're probably too big)

Here are some for 3v3:

Asteroid Belt 3v3 neutrals v03
3v3 Gateway to Paradise v03
3v3 Ring of Risk v03
Ring of Risk-2 3v3 v03

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It has, but i love it. No longer will idiots get shitloads of feed to beat the hawky. and no longer will they trash talk him after they get feeded 4000k to your 400k.

Feed doesnt involve skill, it involves spamming. I had a DT smurf trash talk me before in depolmacy when he had 2k feed and shitloads of minerals before I even got my feed! and then he had the nerve to trash talk me after?

He had 2 planets, I had 4, and I still lost becuase he was consistantly outfeeded me, and when he won, he decided to trash talk me......why? does using feed involve any sort of skill? except clicking the mouse button to spam more units? Feed is part of the game, I know, but trash talking someone after you had shitloads of feed? does that make you a better player?

And another thing tyr, sort your clan out, Recently your clan has been smurfing to the extent to stack teams in EVERY GAME I been in with them. They have also been trash talking other people, leaving games after they lose a few planets, and usally leave with saying something like ' bye ', its getting annyoing and also, not proud to say this, but making games twice as long when half of there team has left.

I dont have a problem with people smurfing, but stacking games with 4DT's on one side, and 3 noobs on the other, its not funny, than also being trashed talked the whole game ruins it for us all. I know you soemtimes do this tyr. (the stacking teams part)

Smurfing is fun, but only to a certain extent. I smurf, but I dont ever stack teams, becuase no one knows who my smurfs are, not even my own clan untill later on when I tell them, but then, I change to another.

DT take smurfing to a whole new level. Please sort it out tyr.

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Large team games can simply never be balanced unless it was designed with that in mind from the ground up (ie World in Conflict). Too many mechanics that keep things balanced in 1v1, 2v2 and FFA go out the window with too many players. Requiring three civ labs and a two techs to feed helps things somewhat, but at the end of the day people can still specialize to degrees that weren't meant to be viable in smaller games.

Yes feeding breaks the game and removes skill. But that's what you get in 3v3 and up in any RTS with feeding. That's why I'm continually suprised that 5v5 is apparently the format of choice on IC.

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You guys think maybe we should have demanded they fix player seatign on random maps as part of Diplomacy? I mean it would have only made sense :/

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I like this system. I wouldn't say the suicide spot is screwed 100% of the time. It doesnt take much more than what a feed spot would be getting in terms of civics labs and research to actually be able to feed a suicide spot. It just takes a little skill on both ends to survive, IE the suicide spot shoring himself up as best as he can until the eco spot can get that feed to him (which a skilled eco spot can get that feed research around about the time asteroids are being built up). What I do like about this system is when there is no feed spot. You get more skill vs skill as opposed to everyone sharing a little of their extra cash with someone who needs it. I get more gratification knowing I fought my opponent fair and square and came out on top, or that I lost to someone who had just as much chance of winning as I did.

Though I REALLY think they should make some fixed position random maps for the MP community.

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The suicide slot is also affected by the large amount of skirantra scramble bomber spam that happens now.

I think tyr was referring to this in part. Skirantras are whacky nuts with scramble bomber, heal, etc. Makes Halcyons look like paper thin hulls with slingshots for weapons.

Though I REALLY think they should make some fixed position random maps for the MP community

Definately. Judge Wopner is on at 3. Dirty's maps are fixed postition for teams. No matter what placement in the order you are at game launch, the same team starts on their own side. Why can't Ironclad make a couple random maps like this?

this kind of angst you're referring to is a direct result of displaced map locations. If team maps were set up with selectable or assigned starting positions, we wouldn't be talking about it.

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Perhaps the solution would be as mentioned before that teams start together on same side or perhaps even better always mixed up 1 A 1 B .....

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

Quoting Protoplazm,

reply 12

Judge Wopner is on at 3.

You and I are probably the only people reading this forum who would recognize the Judge Wopner reference, which makes me feel very old. Before Judge Judy, before Judge Joe Brown, there was...The People's Court!

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Lol. You would be, except the prof who taught my con Law class would mention Judge Wopner from time to time.

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How does this new research work? Do you need to research it in order to recieve the gifts too?

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I think this should be a good reason for more people to play Entrenchment again . You've already spent your money on Diplo, so I doubt Stardock would care either way.

I imagine this would be a problem even on 5-5 split start maps, since the distances between players vary so much that it could be much easier to double/triple rush one side of the map than another.

Quoting Agent of Kharma,

reply 5

You guys are confusing strategy with tactics.

You're confusing trying to sound smart with actual relevance. Early game resource flow IS strategy. Nobody else has mentioned tactics yet.

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You're confusing trying to sound smart with actual relevance. Early game resource flow IS strategy. Nobody else has mentioned tactics yet.

I referenced his mentioning of starbases (something I hear quite a bit among some players), and I was responding to this. Work on your reading comprehension skills.

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