Why is this thread necissary? Illums are getting nerfed next patch no matter what. I'd at least see how the change works before ranting about them... again.

if you do that... I will beat you every single time.  (7unless you have a 3 resoruce netural connected to your hw, and I have a magnetic storm)

illum spam is so easy to counter, no matter how op they are.

I dont find illum spam so deadly anymore.

You should have went massive flak if all he was spamming was ilums.Assailents will get you killed if you dont have enuf to take out his progen and then yoou will be taking losses.Also navs will work.If all he was spamming was ilums you should have won.Ilums will take out an un upgraded sb pretty quick.You will need at least one health on all sb and thats why it isnt always a good option.3-4 Carriers would have been devastating to an all ilum fleet as well and I dont see how they are to expensive compared to cost of deploying and keeping up sb all around.

See below.

I agree with this 100%.  I actually did turn out a huge number of flak - basically as many as I could.  It really wasn't a match for the illums.  I knew ahead of time it wouldn't be, because this is an old story (illum spam is all I ever see).  But what else am I supposed to do?  I mixed in some assailants in an effort to "mix it up a bit" and also counter his cap.  But it was mostly flak, with not much results to show for it.

Upgraded starbases are no match for illums.  Once someone hits the 50-something illum mark, the SBs go down pretty quick, even with hefty use of repair bays.

Yeah, got one of his caps that way (he got mine too).  He just built another.  I didn't bother rebuilding mine.

Today, had another match with another "pro-type" (a recognized name on Astax's replays thread).  He picked Advent.  As the game started I sent him a friendly message and said "Hi, I noticed you picked Advent.  Instead of just spamming illums, why not try to build other units to vary the game a bit?"  I got no response at all, so I knew what was in store.  Sure enough, he came with massive numbers of illums, a mothership, a carrier cap, and nothing else.  I had already decided on a strat of "mutually assured destruction," so I had built a ton of siege frigs.  When he jumped in with all those illums, I jumped at him with all the siege frigs and started taking out his worlds.  He jumped back to defend but my siege frigs could toast his worlds faster than he could kill them.  Then I sent some colonizing frigs while his illums were chasing down my siege frigs.  Unfortunately for me, enemy culture was too strong to colonize, but my "mutually assured detruction" strat worked.  While it insured that I could not win the game, it also insured that he could not, so he quit.

I think I'll use this strat more in the future.  Don't get mad, get M.A.D. (mutually assured destruction)!

Bah I use them all the time.Best works with tec and hoshis.I can tell you will do pretty good if all he spams is ilums and all u spam is flak if your ecoes are similar.You should end up with many more flak then he has ilums.If you get skirantra then your fighters will help big time.

Wel just try it once.One big thing with flak is placement is very important.They fire from all sides so you need to place flak in the middle to use all gunports or keep moving your flak around.Think about it.They have nearly the same dps and both do 75% damage to each other.Flak has much more hitpoints that ilums.So if you can use all 4 banks then you will be dealing out same damage with more hp.Flak is also cheaper.Throw in skiratra with fighters and healing to counter a progen shield and you should be in good shape.I believe flak for vas is tier 2 so you will have more creds and more flak than he has ilums.Thing is if he is going all ilums full on spam you must go full on flak spam.

This is what op and entire thread has been about to my knowledge but otherwise I agree with you quar.It can be an endless counter cycle with most skilled winning.Vas seem to have harder time keeping up with the cycel without subs or sb.

All of these suggestions assume one thing, that the person you are playing against doesn't take advantage of a ridiculously obvious counter.  I remember wading through similar responses a couple months back when arguing that the advent scout rush is too powerful.  (and even though Raging Amish says plenty about how that doesn't work that well the 4-5 I have played with him he has done a scout/disciple rush every time)

When dealing with advent flak isn't going to get the job done, doesn't matter which one in my opinion.  Flak excel at doing a little damage to a ton of different targets.  The mothership with shield restore is going to completely combat that.  It also takes a long time to kill anything with a flak fleet, enough time to spam light frigates.  Plus "moving them into the middle" plays right into the illums strength too.  Building Javs or Assailants to deal with the cap is throwing ships away and it is 50/50 whether it jumps out in time, sits by a repair bay for 1 minute and then jumps back in. 

Carriers can work but expect to lose a whole lot of them.  Illums are actually quite effective at chasing groups of carriers down.  And then there is the obvious mass flak (or mass light frigates) counter as well, which leaves you at square one still dealing with a large fleet of illums. 

I play Vasari almost all the time, and they only true counter is to make a small fleet of scouts, capture all those neutrals, explode your early economy and SB rush like a mad man before he can get his spam going.  If the neutrals aren't there and you are not matched up against a newbie, try not to lose and hope your team gets the win for you.  I have also had luck with people being overconfident and following me into a trap with carriers and phase inhibitors lying in wait while their forces are strung out. 

Right now IMO that makes two early game tactics that gives the Advent a clear edge over TEC and Vasari.  Illum spam and Scout/Disciple spam.  It is a fairly simple fleet which is hard to counter, but the counter to it is fairly easy to counter.  Lets not even talk about dealing with it mid game when you throw thinks like repulse warfare, multiple motherships with shield restore micro and telekinetic push. 

Navigators just suck compared to seekers or scouts.  Actually, they just suck period.