Better quality of games online

WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

I've seen games go on for over 2 hours and superweapons come online. People will delve into the tech tree eventually. The biggest problem with what you're proposing--more planets per player--is that in games of over 6 players it could lead to lag once huge late-game fleets start to build up

Anyway, your best bet for this sort of a game is to play on a multistar map, perhaps the large or huge random multistar maps. One of the reasons why don't see them played often online though is that they can tend to lag later in the game and the game can then become unplayable.

Now, what is interesting is to ask what would happen if the game were set to Small fleet sizes. Would people then delve further into the tech tree? Perhaps it would be interesting to have a multistar map with small fleet sizes.

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Interesting elements takes time. If u cant survive the first attack like a scout rush u wont see much of the game. if you try to play the game the way you want and not adapt to what is needed then you will lose. I see far too many people doing the same strategy no matter the situation and they usually lose fast.

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Now, what is interesting is to ask what would happen if the game were set to Small fleet sizes.

Now there's an idea. Number of players per mapsize was the first "solution" to pop into my head, but this seems as good if not a better approach.

Will any hosts agree to try this option out once and see if anyone likes it? How about you, Sanchez? Can you convince a few of your teammates to give it a go, just for the hell of it?

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

I'm willing to play the Large Random Single Star map with small fleet sizes. I think that's probably the only way that map is really viable since otherwise you end up having those huge lag-inducing fleets later in the game.

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The problem I find with multistar maps is that it tends to come down to which team got their eco rolling first. The last time I played this setup, we won at about the hour and a half mark. I had pervasive economy, two novaliths, and had fed my two Vasari allies to put up four starbases (each) for our push into the last star.

I see late game stuff come into play a lot of the time, but so long as you're in a close battle with an enemy, you have to devote your cash towards military units and expenditure. I frequently see heavy cruisers and high level starbase upgrades, however.

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Quoting JohnJames,

reply 2

Interesting elements takes time. If u cant survive the first attack like a scout rush u wont see much of the game. if you try to play the game the way you want and not adapt to what is needed then you will lose. I see far too many people doing the same strategy no matter the situation and they usually lose fast.

Yes I agree. But my issue isn't that I'm losing fast, or even losing at all (I win plenty, and so does my team). Rather, it's just what I said - not much opportunity for anyone to tech up to anything interesting, at least from my experience.

This is an aside, but I like what you said about not doing the same strategy over and over again, mindlessly. Recently I teamed with a "pro" in a game (DT I think), in a 2v2. Within the first minute or so the guy screamed at me "Where's your fleet?! Start hammering out assailants!" I said "Well, before I start hammering out anything, I'd like to see what my opponent is hammering out" (I had scouts en-route). His response was "It doesn't matter what your opponent is hammering out, all you need to do is make a ton of assailants and you will win." I didn't respond to this, I merely continued with my plan, and upon scouting him realized that he had hammered out a ton of disciples. THEN I started hammering out assailants. We won.

The moral is, even some "pros" play the game mindlessly, even if they can beat you with their mindlessness. I try to play flexibly and "from the brain," even if it means I lose

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The moral is, even some "pros" play the game mindlessly, even if they can beat you with their mindlessness.

On the one hand, I totally agree with you about seeing what your opponent is doing and countering it. However, unless he's scout-spamming assailants are a good idea, and I've seen many players fall apart to a rush because they waited to long to start spamming units. If you're 2 or 3 jumps from an enemy homeworld, it may already be too late to start unit spamming by the time your scouts get there.

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Prob with small fleets is it makes sb stronger.Much more resources to kill a sb.

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If you're 2 or 3 jumps from an enemy homeworld, it may already be too late to start unit spamming by the time your scouts get there.

I think this is the problem with the configuration of most online games. You are almost always a couple jumps away from someone. So if you try to use your head and play with thought and strategy, you often lose because the other guy just starts right up with his preprogrammed script (spam illums or whatever), and it takes a hell of a lot more time and energy and skill for you to react to what he does that it does for him to just follow his script.

I think a few guys in the game (Cykur, RagingAmish) can successfully top other top notch players by using their head and countering the other guy while he just goes by a script. But the rest of us really can't most of the time because it is easier for them to follow their script than it is for you to react to it.

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People like cykur know the game very well.They know the limitations of all units and know exactly how to handle them.They also think much farthur ahead in the game and have a plan if not 2 or 3.They do things like build large scout armies to make you think you should build lf while secretly building ilums to crush your lf army after you build it.They can handle ships perfectly to take minimal losses.They RARELY lose caps.Also their strategy on empire level is superb.If you have 1 hole in any part of your game they will see and kill you easily.

These script people are not all that hard to beat.If you are 2 jumps away from a good player most likely they are not gonna go expanding so you should play according.Scouts crush ilums pretty handily.Vas does have a much tougher game early so you need to keep that in mind.Just put up a few scouts on his world and build accordingly.Basically if you are 2-3 jumps be ready for a fight from the start.If he decides to go expanding instead of building then you have upper hand and can roll him so either way its a good ting for you.

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So if you try to use your head and play with thought and strategy, you often lose because the other guy just starts right up with his preprogrammed script

Not true; for the first few minutes just getting a fleet on the field is of course your top priority, but you do have a lot of leeway in what units to get, and once battles start rolling strategy can be huge.

I've seen lots of different strategies in these close proximity battles, but the most important thing is to make sure you have a fleet to repulse what is coming. Even if it's the wrong fleet it's better than nothing. For instance, I might build 3 or 4 cobalts before I notice that I'm next to a Vasari who is assailant spamming. I'll then swap over to scouts, but it was important I had those cobalts in case I got hit earlier by something nasty.

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So if you try to use your head and play with thought and strategy, you often lose because the other guy just starts right up with his preprogrammed script

Not true

Well, don't know if we're playing the same game or different games or what, but it's certainly what I see. Whether it's games I play in personally, or replays I watch, it's what I see (I'm talking "skilled" games here). The overwhelming number of "skilled" people I see start out with a script before they've even scouted. Most drop 2 civil labs before even knowing whether someone is 1 or 2 phase jumps away. I'm not saying I like it that way or prefer it that way or want it to be that way (in fact I don't), I'm just reporting my observation that it is that way. I don't play that way but I know I have more of a hard time and disadvantage than if I just follow a script because I've tried it. You can get out ahead earlier with a script, it is way easier and way less of a headache to play that way, and if you have higher skill than the next guy (who is also scripting), you will win. If you have equal skill to the next guy who isn't scripting (a rarity), you win. The exception to this that I've mentioned is running into the few Cykurs or Amishes out there. That's my experience, anyway. What's yours?

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ok well some skilled people can judge how far away you are before they even see you.If your scout is 1 jump from your hw and you dont see an enemy scout there its a safe bet he is 2 jumps away.Further out you go before you see an enemy scout the further you enemy.1 jump is hard to tell but 2 jumps and no scout I seriously consider plopping down a civ lab or 2.It also depends on you placement on map.Zoom out and see if you have an ally next to you.If not its a safe bet to go all mil cause you will most likely be doubled.Sometimes skilled people just gamble and have a plan and go for it.If the enemy can catch it in time by scouting then you can gain an upper hand.I usually put down 1 lab of either until I get a clear view of whats goin on.One of the main things is you must have an aggressive mindset for this game.Like a take no prisoner type of thing.

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Quoting Agent of Kharma,

reply 6

Quoting JohnJames, reply 2Interesting elements takes time. If u cant survive the first attack like a scout rush u wont see much of the game. if you try to play the game the way you want and not adapt to what is needed then you will lose. I see far too many people doing the same strategy no matter the situation and they usually lose fast.
Yes I agree. But my issue isn't that I'm losing fast, or even losing at all (I win plenty, and so does my team). Rather, it's just what I said - not much opportunity for anyone to tech up to anything interesting, at least from my experience.

This is an aside, but I like what you said about not doing the same strategy over and over again, mindlessly. Recently I teamed with a "pro" in a game (DT I think), in a 2v2. Within the first minute or so the guy screamed at me "Where's your fleet?! Start hammering out assailants!" I said "Well, before I start hammering out anything, I'd like to see what my opponent is hammering out" (I had scouts en-route). His response was "It doesn't matter what your opponent is hammering out, all you need to do is make a ton of assailants and you will win." I didn't respond to this, I merely continued with my plan, and upon scouting him realized that he had hammered out a ton of disciples. THEN I started hammering out assailants. We won.

The moral is, even some "pros" play the game mindlessly, even if they can beat you with their mindlessness. I try to play flexibly and "from the brain," even if it means I lose

I stand by my original point. If the other player cant stand a lrf rush (lf or scout), then you are playing someone who doesnt know the game. Why use advance tactics or strategy when the simple ones will work against them. If they counter then you counter them and the fun begins.

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I stand by my original point. If the other player cant stand a lrf rush (lf or scout), then you are playing someone who doesnt know the game. Why use advance tactics or strategy when the simple ones will work against them. If they counter then you counter them and the fun begins.

I guess I really don't understand your point as it relates to what I was saying. Are you saying I should have hammered out assailants before I saw what his fleet was? Note that I'm not arguing with you. Since you could beat me with one eye closed and one hand behind your back, that would be dumb. I'm just trying to understand what you are saying.

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Quoting ,

quoting post

I played in tons of online games and watched replays from tons more. It always seems the technology level never gets that high. You never see a lot of interesting late techs come out in a game. Are people really so happy with just scout spam, lf spam, lrf spam, illum spam, etc? Can we say BORING? When can we see some subverters or phase gates? Returning Armada? Antimatter rechargers? Superweapons? I'm not saying I've never seen something like a superweapon in online MP (pbhead has a replay), but I will say I can count the times on one hand.

I've put some thought into this issue, and it seems to me that the crux of the biscuit is the number of players relative to map size. In other words, games are configured so that maps are generally crowded, therefore players bump into each other early in the game and begin fighting. They are so busy with each other and consuming so many resources in their fights that they never have the ability to tech very high.

I propose that we test out a new game configuration. Instead of the ratio of 10 players on an 80-something planet map, how about toning it down to perhaps 8? What I'd like to see is for games to still be as quick and brutal and short as people seem to like in online MP, but for there to also be enough room for a few people to tech up to some interesting units and technologies.

I am not anti-rush. I am not anti-"fast games" if that's what people want to play. I am not anti-fierce cutthroat competition from the get-go. I am not advocating that games go on and on for hours on end. It just seems to me that we could have all of that, but also try to throw in the more inteesting elements of the game.

Anyone else agree?

I'm still new to this game and do not know all the game options. Can an online game be started with designated tech levels to avoid everyone starting at the base level?

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WHIPperSNAPper2008

Join Date 03/2008

+126

Unfortunately, no, but that's not a bad idea for a mod. The game host could select a number of free techs that people could start with and then the players could choose how to allocate them when the game starts.

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Quoting DirtySanchezz,

reply 17

Unfortunately, no, but that's not a bad idea for a mod. The game host could select a number of free techs that people could start with and then the players could choose how to allocate them when the game starts.

cool idea!

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My point was that if you want to be the role of attacker then spamming assailants isnt a bad idea. You can spam one unit and if he counters it then can counter his counter. The community online is small enough though that certain players tend to do the same thing and I usually make a counter to their initial strategy unless I see something different.

Did you know the player you were going to attack?

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Did you know the player you were going to attack?

Nope.

If a certain level of scripting and programmed play is necessary to play the game at your level, okay I understand that, accept that, and can do that. Since 99% of the time an Advent is going to illum spam, it will make my life a hell of a lot easier to just start building the counter to that from the get-go rather than having to physically verify what he is building first.

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Better quality of games online

A proposal