Agent of Kharma

Join Date 02/2008

+31

Vasari skirmisher tests

Before I submit a vote on the "buff skirmishers" issue, I think it would be smart to commission a few tests.

Could a few "pros" of roughly equal skill level get together and perform the following?

Test 1) Head to head match on "point blank." 1 player chooses vasari. The other player chooses Advent. The Advent tries his damn'dest to scout/disciple rush the vasari player. The vasari player tries his damn'dest to defend. Is it possible to do?

Optional rule - debate it amongst yourselves:

This may not make too much of a difference, but it might - the vasari isn't allowed to instantly start playing uber-defense from the get-go. He has to start playing "normally," and only start uber-defending once his own scout hits the grav well of the Advent player and he realizes there is an Advent right on his doorstep (granted, that shouldn't take very long). To make it fair and compare apples to apples, the Advent player has to play "normally" to start out with as well, but that probably entails running off scouts and disciples from the get-go, so his initial few seconds of play may not be (in all likelihood, should not be) any different.

Test 2) Both players build up an equal position undisturbed, up to an agreed upon level. Then the Advent spams carriers. The vasari tries to counter with skirmishers. Is it possible? Debate amongst yourselves what other units (if any) would be allowed in this test, but a raw "carriers vs. skirmishers" should probably be done anyway, just to get a baseline comparison.

Since it may influence the results, the tests should probably be conducted on both "all fast" speeds (typical multiplayer settings these days) and "all normal" speeds. Optionally, if you are motivated, they should be conducted on "all slow" as well. But I will take what I can get.

Report back here with your results. Replays would be nice. Note that I would conduct these tests myself, but 1) I don't consider myself to be a "pro," and I don't think these tests would be valid unless conducted by pros, and 2) I have no one else to conduct these tests with anyway.

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I can already foretell the results on some of this....

The advent Carrier spam will kill the Vas. if only skirms are used.

The Vas player on point blank will be killed within 20 mins if the reaction time is not good enough.... 40 minutes if he gets a starbase on the homeplanet soon enough.

Thats my prediction. Let the testing begin!

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Quoting ,

quoting post

The Advent tries his damn'dest to scout/disciple rush the vasari player. The vasari player tries his damn'dest to defend.

Please note that when I say "defend," that in fact means "do whatever you have to do to counter, survive, win, whatever." So "defend" is up to your interpretation, but it might very well involve attack!

The advent Carrier spam will kill the Vas. if only skirms are used.

Back in the days of carrier spam, I certainly would have agreed. I don't know enough to make a prediction at this point.

The Vas player on point blank will be killed within 20 mins if the reaction time is not good enough.... 40 minutes if he gets a starbase on the homeplanet soon enough.

I'll take the other side of the bet just for fun I'll say the vasari can defend, hold, whatever.

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So is no one going to take me up on this? Why? Do people believe this is not worthwhile? Or do people believe this issue is already settled (if so, in which direction)? Or... just too much of a pain in the ass?

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Pbhead

Join Date 12/2008

+77

there is the slight issue of finding 2 people willikng to play this at the same time... thats the hard bit. I would be willing if anyone bothers to see me on.

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so would i if i could go ICO, but i keep getting something about a mesh not lining up or some bull. After that, i'd need a couple practice games to catch up with ICO Strategies.

Not sure how all fast, normal, slow speeds will have an effect, since the same stuff will happen over a longer timeline. (No advantage for either player)

I do not concider myself a pro either, but some results are better than none.

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Pbhead or CallenExile, post back here with a proposed date and time you can be online to do this (as well as a screenname). I can do it with either of you if true "pros" can't get together on this. You will have to bear with me on a slow, laggy internet connection, but since this is simply tests we are doing vs. a "real game," I'm guessing that should be okay.

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I'll let pb choose the time, i'm pretty much always available, but i'm still unable to go ICO, i do need help with that.

Screename i assume is something like your Profile Name in Single Player?

If so, it's: Sadrekkan 3rd Fleet.

If not, i use CallenExile for everything else.

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K. Think i've got it figured out. Do most ICO play Vanilla? Just played two Vanilla games this morning, no problem, but can't find an opponent for entrenchment.

Also, screename is CallenExile.

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Okay CallenExile, I will add your screenname. Tell me when is a good time for you, what day, and what time zone. Make sure you have a couple hours to play. Entrenchment is the standard as far as I know, so that's what we should play.

You did get it working, right? If not, make sure you have turned off all mods (if you use any) because that will affect whether you can get online. If that doesn't work, just uninstall and reinstall everything.

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like i said, i'm almost always available. I'm on central time (It's 11:58 right now, check the difference on the post time) , so keep that in mind. I do have 1 other rule to concider however:

Advent should not be able to build Illums, unless their damage bug has been fixed. I know it wasn't a part of the advent's intended strike, but that must be made a rule to keep it fair, since they get so much of an advantage from it.

Also, i'm against the no instant fortifying because vasari will already know who he's fighting from the setup screen, with the exception of random race.

We should also do two games, each of us taking a turn with both sides.

Question: Capitol ships? (Wasn't mentioned above, i assume no. Either way is fine but i'm not motivated enough to try both in one day.)

I'm guessing the Vasari will be able to hold their own, possibly putting this into a stalemate.

Still would like to play one ICO practice game on Entrenchment with ANYBODY, no special rules. Preferably someone who knows what they're doing so i can actually get a feel for the pace online. My MP expierience is limited to local LAN vs the same person over and over.

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like i said, i'm almost always available.

I've never seen you online. I will have a block of a few hours here and there for the next couple of days, hit and miss, but then probably a large block of time next week. I will keep checking.

Advent should not be able to build Illums, unless their damage bug has been fixed.

Since this test was intended to test the skirmisher's relative strength against lf/scouts, I don't have a problem with that. What say we building nothing but lf/scouts (besides a capship, I guess)?

Also, i'm against the no instant fortifying because vasari will already know who he's fighting from the setup screen....

No, he won't know who he is fighting, nor will he know his position on the map until scouting has occurred. You see, we are trying to simulate a typical online game (2v2, 3v3, 4v4) where you pick vasari, some other dude (or several) have picked advent, the game starts, you scout and go "OH SHIT!" because an advent is right next door. Meanwhile, he scouts and goes "HELL YES!" because a vasari is right next door, and he licks his chops. Some have complained that this is bad for vasari because their light frig sucks. You have said their light frig is fine, that vasari can use hit and run, reintegration, that he should not repurpose units, blah blah. We want to test this.

The best way to test the above scenerio is with the rule I outlined, don't you think?

We should also do two games, each of us taking a turn with both sides.

We can do as many games as you want.

Question: Capitol ships? (Wasn't mentioned above, i assume no. Either way is fine but i'm not motivated enough to try both in one day.)

Everybody always builds their first capship. This is completely normal in a game, so sure - build whatever capship you want.

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Name a time. Note that i am two hours behind the forums time here.

What is your ICO name?

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I sent you a private message.

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Guess we'll have to try again another day. Or maybe set up different people to do this. pb seemed interested, maybe between the three of us we can get something to work.

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btw, when i say i'm always available, i mean i can get to a game whenever. I'm not constantly on ICO because of a lack of entrenchment games.

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Realistically we shouldn't have even attempted this until the Illums are fixed. A vasari player won't be fielding skirmishers forever, and this test was partially about vasari's survivability against advent. Without their LRF, it wouldn't be a fair test later in the game.

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