Caydr

Join Date 03/2006

Capital ship balance/tweak suggestion

My memory does strange things sometimes, but I think I remember even Ironclad people mentioning that they disliked the way that capital ships inevitably gain all their abilities, rather than specializing in one or two fields. I believe it was mentioned that the cap ship ability system would ideally be more like starbase upgrade modules - you make the ship with a specific purpose in mind, whether it's armor, weapons, fighters, trade, etc.

Besides this, there are some cap ship abilities that I would (generally) prefer not to use. For instance, the flak ability on Kol battleships - IMHO it eats up too much antimatter, and I would much rather have the shield enhancement or a high-level gauss shot. Yes, I realize I can just disable it, and I generally do. (Someone's about to argue and tell me flak is awesome, I can feel it. It's just an example folks.)

My suggestion is like this: instead of forcing the player to pick a specific upgrade, they also always have the option of just increasing hull points by a certain percentage, maybe for a maximum of two or three levels. I would gladly take a 10% HP boost over Missile Turret or Embargo in the late game.

This would also (somewhat) alleviate the problem of capital ships being mass-targetted. If you wanted to be really ambitious you could offer a generic weapon upgrade and armor upgrade as well... you know,

"flux capacitor - increases all weapon damage by 10%"
"endgame - totally ripoff the batmobile, increase armor by 5"
"shielded thermal exhaust ports - reduces vulnerability to weapons fire, with a net 10% increase in survivability"
"double decker docking derricks - increase fighter capacity by 1 squad"

What do you think?

EDIT:
To summarize my revised idea below, there would be just one "generic" upgrade per ship. It gives regular bonuses IN ADDITION to what you automatically get for a ship leveling up. So if you get 50 extra HP for a ship leveling up, this is in addition to that. But it is a REPLACEMENT for an ability or extra level for an ability. You click this instead of clicking "Embargo, Level 1" for instance. It would give an upgrade to the ship's HP and Shields, but also one unique upgrade for each class of capital ship. What I mean is, a battleship might get extra amour, while a carrier would get extra strike craft capacity.

For a working example, you might have the following ship. All upgrade stats are completely made-up, I don't have them memorized. The ship in question is based on the Sova Carrier.

Level 1: It's the late-game, I don't need Embargo or Missile Battery, so I get "Heavy Strike Craft".

Level 2: For achieving level 2, I get +5% HP automatically. The second level of "Heavy Strike Craft" is not yet available, so I can either get Embargo or Missile Battery, both of which are useless in the late game. But instead, a new ability has opened up next to the "Train new level" button, called "Systems Upgrade" (or something). It will provide me with things of practical benefit at this stage in the game: +4% HP, +4% Shield, and an extra wing of strike craft. I choose the Systems Upgrade rather than the basically useless (at this stage of the game) Embargo or Missile Battery.

Level 3: For achieving level 3, I get +5% HP and an extra wing of strike craft automatically. My carrier now has 5% + 5% +4% HP, +4% Shield, and 2+1+1 Strike Craft capacity. The second level of Heavy Strike Craft is now available, so I select it.

Level 4: For achieving level 4, I get +5% HP automatically. The next level of Heavy Strike Craft is not yet available, and the Sova's "special" ability hasn't been unlocked yet (Armistice? I forget what it is. Anyway...). So I get another level of Systems Upgrade. For this level, I get +5% HP, +5% Shield, +1 Strike Craft Capacity.

Level 5: For achieving level 5, I get +5% HP and yet another wing of strike craft automatically. The next level of Heavy Strike Craft still hasn't been unlocked. I get another generic Systems Upgrade instead, netting me an additional +6% HP, +6% and ANOTHER wnig of strike craft. This thing's really turning into a carrier! For a summary, so far I have: +20% HP from leveling, +15% HP from Systems Upgrade, +15% Shield from Systems Upgrade, and a total of 7 wings of Strike Craft (2 to start, 2 from leveling, and 3 from Systems Upgrades).

Level 6: For achieving level 6, I get +5% HP automatically. The next level of Heavy Strike Craft is available! I choose you, Heavy Strike Craft L3!

Level 7: For achieving level 7, I get +5% HP automatically and still another wing of Strike Craft. The Carrier's super-special ability has just been unlocked (whatever it is... pretty sure it's not armistice, but it's one of those). I feel compelled to choose it, for the button is such a pretty shade of blue.

Level 8: For achieving level 8, I get +5% HP automatically. There are no further ability upgrades I'm interested in, so Systems Upgrade it is. +7% HP, +7% HP, +1 Strike Craft.

Level 9: For achieving level 9, I get +5% HP automatically. AND MROE STRIK CRAFTZ! No abilities I want. I grab the fifth and final level of Systems Upgrade. It gives me +8% HP, +8+ Shields, and... OMGWTFBBBQPOW 2 extra wings of strike craft! It's like an ocean, only instead of water, strike craft! There's strike craft everywhere! This thing's a real frakking carrier!

Level 10: For achieving level 10, I get +10% HP automatically. And.... nothing else. Sorry. Yikes, no more levels of Systems Upgrade available either. Errrr... I guess... I'll get Missile Battery...? Well it's... it'll be one more gun I guess. Still, I feel full of confidence in my Capital Carrier, for all of my automatic upgrades from leveling and the further upgrades from Systems Upgrade have given me, in total:

Base Stats: 2 wings of Strike Craft.
From Leveling (Automatically received): +50% HP! (EXAMPLE statistic) Leveling also got me 4 wings of SC and L3 Heavy Strike Craft.
From Systems Upgrades: +30% HP, +30% Shields, and 6 wings of Strike Craft a'swarming.
In total: +80% HP, +30% Shields, 12 wings of Strike Craft.

Again, the automatic +5% per level HP bonus isn't something I'm suggesting, it was just a completely arbitrary figure to ensure people understand that the "Systems Upgrades" are in addition to standard per-level upgrades.

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that could be a good idea but what do you do with leveling?

If like starbase evolution, everything would be based on money and not combat experience..

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i would miss getting abilitys AND general weapons/armour/hp at the same time

but i think you can combine the ships leveling and having them specialize at the same time

like in WOW you gain talent point as you lvl but will never get enough talent points to fill all 3 talent trees

but then again i dont think that they want ti add rpg elements to the game

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Good idea to buff capital ships!

However like I mentioned in my own thread a petition to buff capital ships, they should really already gain a 10-15% buff to shields and hp right now without any reservations.

After that, I'd proposed adding a lv. 4 Tech that allows newly built capital ships from the shipyard to start out at lv. 3 already. This in addition to a general Flak addition to capital ships to provide at least some kind of weak Flak equal to about 2 Flak Frigates to fight back against strike craft.

These two suggestions address the primary problems of weak capital ships and should help them make a better role in the game!

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I think all they need is to be able to level past 10, with the stats continuing to scale up. Imagine a lvl 15 Kol, what a beast that would be!!

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@MarcParis What do you mean, "what about leveling"? What I'm proposing is in addition to the automatic benefits of leveling, and would require experience the same as any other ability.

The way my proposed idea would work would allow you to upgrade your cap like this:
L1: Gauss Cannon
L2: +10% Hull
L3: v2 Gauss Cannon
L4: +10% Shields
L5: +20% Shields (10% + 10%)
L6: v3 Gauss Cannon
L7: +35% Shields (15% + 10% + 10%, max shield boost level)
L8: Finest Hour
L9: +10% Weapons
L10: +20% Weapons (10% + 10%)

So, at the end of the day, you would have a Kol with a v3 Gauss Cannon, +10% Hull, +35% Shields, +20 Weapons. No further upgrades possible regardless of how much money you have to throw at it, it's L10, it's done. Or, maybe you are a really extremist person and you decide to get:

1) +3 Armour
2) +6 Armour (3+3)
3) +10 Armour (4+3+3)
4) +10% HP
5) +20% HP (10% + 10%)
6) +35% HP (15% + 10% + 10%)
7) Gauss v1
8) Gauss v2
9) Gauss v3
10) Finest Hour

All those armour, shield, and hull upgrades, combined with a top-level gauss cannon - you would have one hell of a deadly ship once you completed TEC's extensive hull + armour tech tree. The changes would be significant, but not game-breaking. After all, you're giving up the super-shield ability (whatever it's called, sorry). Can you imagine? A Kol with +30% HP from tech, +35% HP from leveling, +9 armour from tech, +10 armour from leveling, and a gauss cannon powered by Finest Hour? Holy crap, that would be a capital ship alright.

It would still be weak to mines, bombers, long-range attacks, and enemy cap(s) with a similar level, or just an old fashioned frigate swarm. But on the plus side, you haven't "wasted" precious leveling points on abilities you have no intention of ever using on a purpose-built flagship. When you're fighting a shooting war with someone, what use is a carrier's missile battery, or embargo? Wouldn't you rather have a bit more hull points or a few more fighter wings? A missile battery anywhere but in the early game does not contribute significantly to a battle, especially given that it does not move and has a limited lifespan. Similarly, Embargo has virtually no impact on a mid or late game economy, yours or your enemy's. If I saw an enemy carrier doing an Embargo on one of my worlds, 4 hours into a game, I would say, "Good, that's one more enemy capital ship that I've accounted for", not "OH NO! I'M GONNA LOSE 2 METALZ!".

For the Sova example, would you rather have a deadly L3 embargo, or 7 (2+2+3) more fighter squads? That would be a true carrier - equal to more than double its cost in conventional carriers, but eating up one of your precious cap slots. Can you imagine, 4 of them jumping into a system, launching 11 bomber squads each? Those are carriers, not the dinky little things we've got now that can hold 4 wings at their top level IIRC. In other words, more expensive in every way than the equivalent in light carriers, and without even the benefit of any really good abilities like the Kol has.

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but the way things are nao caps already get shield/hull/weapon damage bonus with leveling along with ability points um that how it was the last time i checked anyways

so unless your proposing that you can spend earned ability points on EXTRA stats then i dont like that idea

but as far as specializing is concerned the easiest solution would prolly be to simpily have more puchesable ranks than ability points earned

like haveing 5 ranks of each base ability while still having only 10 availble ability points or something like that

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@Credit, I agree with you about some basic flak being a very good idea, but I'm not so sure about the arbitrary +10% to all HP/shields/etc you say. It would (probably) need to be done on a case-by-case basis if it was a general buff to all caps. A research item which allows ships to start at their researched maximum trainable level would certainly be an excellent idea, it would save some tedious micromanagement. However, it could NOT be a low-end tech - the cost to train ships is pretty high, and you're talking about completely eliminating it. It would need to be a high-end tech, maybe one level below Pervasive Economy, and very expensive at that.

@Firath Yes I thought I was being clear, sorry if I wasn't: I mean additional HP, etc, not what you get automatically.

@Burnout, I'm not answering your suggestion directly in this post but the same things would happen if you had a level 15 Kol, as you said.

Having 5 ranks of each weapon would make the abilities even more polarized (like, more extremely powerful or more extremely useless in many cases), or else mean the 3 levels are divided up into 5 levels, with equal power at the end. Either way it's not very pretty.

For instance, I don't recall exacly how much the Gauss Cannon does at rank 3, but let's say it's 1000 damage. So the ranks would be something like, 300 damage, 600 damage, 1000 damage, since the last rank always gives a bit of an extra bonus. If you continued like that, you'd have rank 4 being 1500 damage, and rank 5 being 2250 or something. 2250 damage 8 times or so (depending on the antimatter cost and your antimatter tech research), something like 10 seconds apart, would destroy 2 or 3 capital ships regardless of their tech within a minute. I know my numbers are propbably WAY off, but the example is still very relevant.

On the other end of the spectrum, things like Embargo would not get any more powerful, since they are (mostly) only useful in early game situations. So you'd have a situation where 3 carriers could be destroyed by one battleship in 60 seconds. In other words, capitals end up either being outrageously powerful or completely useless, depending on the type. You would never build anything again but Kols, Marzas, and their equivalents. Capital ships as a whole would be worse. Do not want.

OR if the 5 levels are just the 3 levels split up into more levels... that has the effect of making capitals weaker. Not a good idea.

Both of your "solutions" end up with capitals being weaker across the board (since one capital can destroy another almost instantly) or else in other cases outrageiously powerful to the point of being game-breaking. You would end up with Starcraft-style micromanagement matches where whoever casts their abilities quickest wins.

My solution would simply allow capitals to be stronger against everything, even other capitals, regardless of any other considerations or circumstances, without at any time being unfairly powerful. Also, it would fit nicely into the interface as it is - IIRC there are three (four?) unused buttons in the level up menu. Each ship class (battleship, carrier, support a, support b, dreadnaught) would have their own 3 upgrades, with some shared across classes. Battleships would get Armour, HP, Shield for instance, while carriers might get Strike Craft Capacity, HP, Shield. Dreadnaughts might get Weapon Power, HP, Shield. Support ships would get Strike Craft Capacity (to a lesser degree compared to carriers), HP, Shield.

OR!!! I bet if there's an Ironclad employee reading this, he's saying, "OMG TOO MANY BUTTONS END-USER WILL GET FRIGHTENED", which is a valid concern. Perhaps the abilities could be made into a single general non-ability upgrade. Each level for a battleship gives you +2 Armor, +5% HP, +5% Shield, while a carrier would get +2 Strike Craft Capacity, +5% HP, +5% Shield. The whole point of this is, you get the option of NOT choosing an ability, but rather getting a "here and now" bonus (to quote Fallout). There would be a maximum of 4 or 5 levels with, naturally, the last level giving a little extra bonus.

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hmmm well thats all true

i was just trying to relate it to WOWs talent tree thing with out actually suggesting adding a talent tree to the capital ships cuz that would just be too rediculous

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As long as we're all advocating buffing caps...

FREE BEERs for everyone on the HOUSE.!

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I'm from Canada, I don't need your cheap, crappy, watered-down American beer

Firath, I know WoW. I've played WoW. WoW and I are good friends. Firath, this ain't WoW (sorry to all those too young to get this one)

Please re-read my first post, I've edited it to include an example capital ship and how it would be improved by the "systems upgrade" thing. At the end of it all, you get 6 extra strike craft wings, +30% HP and shields. Not bad for the late-game when the alternative is Embargo and Missile Batteries.

(edited: "+30 HP" replaced with the intended "+30% HP")

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hmmm well thats true all very true

well putting that aside isnt +30 hp kinda lame

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+30%, sorry.

So a carrier that starts off with 3000 HP and shields gets 900 extra HP and shields. This is in addition to standard per-level bonuses and bonuses from research.

I'm not sure how bonuses compound in Sins, but (theoretically) you might get something like +20% HP and shields from going all the way from level 1 to level 10, and +30% for researching HP techs, and this is +30% on top of that.

So depending on how they calculate it, it would be a benfit of anywhere between 900 extra HP and shields to 1400 extra HP and shields. Again, I remind you these are all made-up figures, I don't think carriers start with 3000 HP on the dot and I have no idea about exactly how much or what kind of a benefit they get from each level-up.

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ah yes thats not lame at all

tho if i think about it id miss setting my caps to auto manage abilitys and then running them thro a few pirate bases anf neutral colonies with the security in knowing that theyd still endup being the same wether or not i micromanage them myself

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This certainly doesn't prevent you from still using auto-cast on whatever abilities you do decide to pick. For instance on the Kol you might decide to get full Gauss and super-shield upgrades, plus Finest Hour, leaving you with only 3 spare ability points to spend on System Upgrades if you have a level 10 ship.

In the Kol's case, the Gauss gun and it super-shield ability are way better than the small extra boost you'd be adding to the HP and shields. My idea is intended for ships whose abilities aren't very good for the situation you're in. For instance, you might not want the Embargo ability on a carrier because it's the late-game or you might not want the colonize ability on a support capital if you're fighting a defensive battle with no need to colonize planets.

I'm not sure a final total of +30 HP and shield would be a good finishing point for the System Upgrade ability, perhaps a little lower like 20% would be more reasonable. You're still talking about 1000+ extra health and shield combined... pick that, or Embargo.

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no what i meant was setting it to auto assign ability points for when im to lazy to do so myself

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Oh... I didn't even know that was possible. If it's a matter of you not being able to tell which ships can upgrade, in the galaxy tree thing there is a "+" next to ships which have ability points to spend. It's hard to see, but it's there.

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no its a matte of its later in the game and ive built the remainder of my avilble caps in one shot and purchesed all purchese able lvls and im just to lazy to assign 4 points each to 11 caps so i just turn on the auto assign

btw this on giant 400+ planet maps against bots so its easy to get to a point where i can actually do that

edit: if there was anything i would tweak it would first be giving the caps longer chars limits on their names

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Epic bump

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