To the Dev Team

Quoting tristangoodes,

The expansion packs for sins were never planned during development. The way Sins was released was the way Ironclad wanted it.

Also. Since the release of Sins. There have been a lot of patches that have come out, tweaking the game, improving the graphics...

I dont' believe I ever heard Ironclad state they were releasing the game unfinished. You guys should remember, the guys at Ironclad are gamers just like the rest of us. They want to produce a game that they love and others will love. They are not a corporate machine. They're a small team of 6 artists and 4 programmers (during sins development, was smaller)

I read these forums every day. I have yet to see many forums about people complaining about the game Engine. Maybe it's you and a few others. Either way. Instead of crying like a baby. Post your complaints about the engine. For an art perspective, the game is open ended, you can create any art assets you want. Things like weapon banks are hard coded to increase stabilty and performance of the engine.

I can understand your frustration, however, dont accuse Ironclad of being some malicious corporation. I know them personally, they are some of the nicest people I know.

can this be said any better? Thank you for putting common sense and decency back into the thread.

Quoting Fandangdo,

reply 24

Yes, I understand what you mean regarding changes in statements. However, I think in the context of Sins this point you make is a little over the top given the develpment history and what was promised, particularly in light of the gamer bill of rights. You can't claim to be representing gamers interests whilst contradicting your own codes of conduct.

Yes they did say they were releasing the game early and without said features due to commercial reasons and the fact it was a small dev team.

Quoting Mazuo,

reply 25

Gee, I'd love to see this quote in context.

I'm with you, since you seem to be accusing the devs of saying such things, please be kind...and rewind. In other words, show some proof (a link, a direct quote, anything that even remotely resembles these statements), as I don't remember seeing anything close to that.

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Quoting Craig Fraser,

reply 22

"starbases can be added in through modding so i dont see much point in spending 10 USD on it (although, it will probably be good nonetheless)"

If you had any idea what kind of work and value we packed into this unpriced expansion you would realize how potentially insulting that could sound. Fortunately I am not going to take it that seriously. I can only assume you haven't read the full features list, you don't understand what each starbase can do, and you are cautiously under valuing the content you haven't seen so that you'll be that much more blown away when you DO purchase the expansion!

its not a question of if, its a question of when.

atm, im in no position to buy the expansion (i owe my dad close to a grand for my new computer.....)

and i haven't read the features list, but my mod (Fires of War) will include starbases, just to make something clear....I AM NOT TRYING TO UNDERMINE STARDOCK, the mod takes place over 3000 years after the TEC-Vasari-Advent war. (so you can see why it includes starbases, hell the advent, TEC and vasari are not going to be playable in said mod) but i will probably buy entrenchment, if not entrenchment, hten i will buy the next two xpacks (the diplomacy and ship one)

I won't read the features list yet.....takes the fun out of getting it

-Jag

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Quoting ,

quoting post

Like the title says, the issues present in Sins and with the dev team make me feel like I'm bashing my head against the wall. Since the mods/devs pay little/no attention to the modding forums, or the forums in general for that matter, I figure that if I yell at you guys in a higher-visibility area I can get some attention on these problems. With the issues, I feel like I'm slamming my head against a brick wall. But not just any brick wall, an EA-style brick wall where the company is actively rebuilding the wall so they don't have to notice the community since we already ponied up the cash.

1. Modding hardocdes. We want them gone. Now. You guys, say "It would require a total engine re-write." I say, "So? DO IT ALREADY!". We say, "Why are there even the hardcoded limits?" You say, "We switched direction multiple times during development." I say if your engine is a slapped-together amalgamated kludge since you had no idea what you were doing during the development process, that is your problem for you to fix. Not ours to deal with. You say these things like we are being unreasonable. We aren't. We just want a game we can mod. If your engine is an entire hardcode, just re-write the damn thing already to fix the problems that you created.

Right, cause they can totally do that in an afternoon. Its really no big deal.

2. Entrenchment. This adds features that should have been added to Sins IN A PATCH! If defenses are so damn bad you can raid the enemy's homeworld 5 planets behind the front lines, then that is something you should definitely look at fixing with a patch, not a $9.99 "micro-expansion". If defenses are that useless, fix them! Just don't make us pay $9.99 to fix a game dynamic that shouldn't have been broken in the first place. Same with the second expansion. Diplomacy sucks. Everyone knows it. Don't make us pay you $9.99 so we can fix something you broke.

Have you ever bought a game before in your life? Command and Conquer 3: $49.99. C&C3: Kane's Wrath: $29.99. GASP! HOW DARE THEY CHARGE FOR ADDITIONAL CONTENT! Why, they ought to release everything for free because I already paid them once! I should get free groceries too cause I went to Cub last week and paid them! Why should I pay again for more stuff? The bastards!

3. Impulse. Sins is Linux compatible. Impulse isn't. You aren't going to bother with making Impulse Linux-compatible. That means that the people wth Linux will have to get their patches and micro-expansions some other way. Like through piracy. Dumb move.

If you're nerd enough to run Linux you're nerd enough to dual boot. Im sure Stardock is in chaos now because they realized that all 4 of you who refuse to install XP on your Linux boxes are going to try and pirate their games. In fact I can hear the screams. Oh wait, those are screams of laughter. At your post.

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Wow, someone took their bitchy pills. Relax dude, it's a game. And it's a game you weren't required to buy because it wasn't mandate by law...chill....

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Quoting ,

quoting post

2. Entrenchment. This adds features that should have been added to Sins IN A PATCH! If defenses are so damn bad you can raid the enemy's homeworld 5 planets behind the front lines, then that is something you should definitely look at fixing with a patch, not a $9.99 "micro-expansion". If defenses are that useless, fix them! Just don't make us pay $9.99 to fix a game dynamic that shouldn't have been broken in the first place. Same with the second expansion. Diplomacy sucks. Everyone knows it. Don't make us pay you $9.99 so we can fix something you broke.

The defenses in Sins weren't meant to be a cure-all to fleet attacks, they were to slow the enemy down. People use these mechanics all the time. They're called STRATEGIES, I'm sorry if your brain does not compute. And Entrenchment offers a whole other game that is going to turn those strategies on their heads, giving people a chance to start over. The intellectual value and new strategies of the micro-expansion is going to be just as important as the new things they are adding. I'd say that's worth ten dollars.

Keep up the good work SD and IC, you guys made an incredible game, and it shows.

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Is it just me or does the OP poster come off like a sterotypical "linux: everything should be open source and free at that!" elitist or what? The game is great, its far above and beyond what most RTS'es offer and if paying 10 bucks for more content is too much for you, no one is forcing you to do it.

And I thought Mac users were bad /facepalm

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I have not read all the messages here, but I have a few things too add :

Linux : ther's more people than you might think that uses Linux and would like to be able too play without having to do dual installations. Maybe time some actual proper dedicated linux installations come out rather than wine and other Win emulators.

More and more PC's are sold with Linux or no OS and Linux is gradually taking more customers.

The financial politics of the game are gradually turning BAD. It looked great too start with : reasonnable price, downloadable..

Then they start adding extentions that look like patches for 9.9$ without lowering the original game's price. Its been nearly a year SOASE has been out and the price is about the same. Other games come out 60$ and one year later cost 10$ Sins cost the same.. Problem there, and if one wants the game now we have to pay for the game + the extention.

That makes it much less intresting especially as one cant resell the game after like with other games !

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That makes it much less intresting especially as one cant resell the game after like with other games

it's a free world and if you don't wanna pay ----- don't

as for more and more linux users, so what they are still a marginal % of the market and expecting a company to develop to suport both that and windows is foolish for atleast a few more years

and btw the games that fall in price are ... wait for it ..... the games that sux, the titels that go over in history are often a 'very' long time in falling in price.

lastly, considering it (sins) scores 9-9,5-10 / 10 in so many reviews it seems a bit far fetched to claim that the mini x-packs should be added as patches, they will fundamentaly change the game and if you don't like that gameplay don't buy them, but I'd rather have them as cheap mini x-packs than as full price sins 2 -> 3 -> 4

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Quoting Althaz,

reply 7

That makes it much less intresting especially as one cant resell the game after like with other games !

OK, I must say, I don't resell games myself, so I'm curious what it means/signifies when someone decides to resell a game.

Does it mean that he or she was disappointed in the game (it did not meet their expectations), or that he or she has gotten bored with it and does not want to play it - ever again?

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I'm pretty sure everyone has made their point: Sins is a great game, not the most perfect game, but a really great game, and you shouldn't complain about it having hardcodes which they put there, probably for a good reason (something you should not change, and if you change it, the game won't work alltogether). The expansion pack, for an expansion that adds alot for just 10 bucks, and is just as modable as Sins, is definitley worth it. No one cares about the 6 people who don't own Linux. And finally, CHILL OUT! It's just a game, a really good game.

-DA NOOB HAS SPOKEN!

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having hardcodes which they put there, probably for a good reason

The reason is basically system resources and performance. Sins is a complicated game, and a lot of the hardcodes are there to make sure it runs the way they want it to, especially since from the beginning they've tried to make it very playable on old hardware.

Take Entrenchment beta for example - they added a bunch of new textures, and some people can't play it without a crash unless they turn down texture details and such because Sins is hitting the memory limit otherwise.

Engine stability should (and does) take greater priority over unrestricted modding.

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Quoting Kruppe,

reply 8

That makes it much less intresting especially as one cant resell the game after like with other games

it's a free world and if you don't wanna pay ----- don't

as for more and more linux users, so what they are still a marginal % of the market and expecting a company to develop to suport both that and windows is foolish for atleast a few more years

and btw the games that fall in price are ... wait for it ..... the games that sux, the titels that go over in history are often a 'very' long time in falling in price.

lastly, considering it (sins) scores 9-9,5-10 / 10 in so many reviews it seems a bit far fetched to claim that the mini x-packs should be added as patches, they will fundamentaly change the game and if you don't like that gameplay don't buy them, but I'd rather have them as cheap mini x-packs than as full price sins 2 -> 3 -> 4

I like to pay for what I use, a fair price of course.

How much is marginal for you ? 10% ? 20% ? linux is a growing market, its taking 'shares' and its a pity too see than game developpers tend to not bother doing what is often just a few tweaks to allow games to be compatible.

Today many games are still difficult to run under linux (some impossible) witch means that a game that has an actual Linux version could be a real selling point ! Even if one considers the growing linux community as marginal it still has lots of potential customers due too the lack of concurrence.

Even super blockbusters like Supreme commander end up in the 10/15$ replay reedition box after a year.. and one can get a second hand copy for a few bob on ebay.

Lastly.. well I am with you on that one. Only problem is that if the original game does not go down in price the global price to pay for the game goes up at each add on. So older game ==> more expensive. Thats kind of the opposite of what normally happens.

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Then they start adding extentions that look like patches for 9.9$ without lowering the original game's price. Its been nearly a year SOASE has been out and the price is about the same. Other games come out 60$ and one year later cost 10$ Sins cost the same.. Problem there, and if one wants the game now we have to pay for the game + the extention.

hmm let me think i recently had to purchase another copy of oblivion (my old one broke) and i payed ohh maybe 10 dollars less for it than i payed for my first copy 2 YEARS later and guess how much oblivion costs 60-70 dollars

also i know that oblivions an RPG its just an example

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Quoting Maccilia,

reply 13

Then they start adding extentions that look like patches for 9.9$ without lowering the original game's price. Its been nearly a year SOASE has been out and the price is about the same. Other games come out 60$ and one year later cost 10$ Sins cost the same.. Problem there, and if one wants the game now we have to pay for the game + the extention.
hmm let me think i recently had to purchase another copy of oblivion (my old one broke) and i payed ohh maybe 10 dollars less for it than i payed for my first copy 2 YEARS later and guess how much oblivion costs 60-70 dollars

also i know that oblivions an RPG its just an example

Not a good buy then, just looked at the sales on eba* today, most copies of oblivion second hand sold around 10-15 € (I baught it 62€ new when it came out) and about 20€ for PS3/XBox versions and the extention shivering isles 7€99 New...

And the new price seems to be about 30€ in online shops. True I live in France, but I cant see the market being that far different. http://www.paradisdujeuvideo.com/elder-scrolls-oblivion-p-2062.html

And as you said earlyer, its a RPG and a very special one, so it keeps a lot more value than most games.

Take a strategy game, a good one that cost again over 60€ and look what happens : Supcom

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2415

Although I dont agree with the tone the OP takes, I do agree with most of the points the OP makes. Pre-release on IRC and elsewhere both Ironclad and Stardock reps said that they were releasing sins early and in an unfinished state, for commercial reasons. They also said that stuff such as diplomacy and some of the other features missing due to a needed early release, would be made available via a patch. At one point I believe the patch said to contain said features would be 1.11.

What??

Sins wasn't released early. It went out on time with exactly the features we (Stardock and GPG) had planned on. Would we have liked to have more diplomacy features? Sure. But we didn't have any firm idea of what they might have been. There weren't some set of features that we cut to make some arbitrary date.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

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We've all heard rumours of software developers 'holding' off product features to pad future releases now and then, but to assume all developers do this with intent is absurd. If anything, we are guilty of giving into feature creep and packing too much in.

the issues present in Sins and with the dev team make me feel like I'm bashing my head against the wall.

If your bashing your head against the wall with us, I'd hate to see what you do to yourself when you are dealing with other devs.

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Not a good buy then, just looked at the sales on eba* today, most copies of oblivion second hand sold around 10-15 € (I baught it 62€ new when it came out) and about 20€ for PS3/XBox versions and the extention shivering isles 7€99 New...

And the new price seems to be about 30€ in online shops. True I live in France, but I cant see the market being that far different. http://www.paradisdujeuvideo.com/elder-scrolls-oblivion-p-2062.html

And as you said earlyer, its a RPG and a very special one, so it keeps a lot more value than most games.

Take a strategy game, a good one that cost again over 60€ and look what happens : Supcom

great just great i wasted alot of money better spent on new video games

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Sins wasn't released early. It went out on time with exactly the features we (Stardock and GPG)

Uhm... time to switch gears.

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I think Sins is an excellent game, it's $10 cheaper than most games and I played it for more than a yr and it still isn't boring as most games tend to be after 1-2 weeks. The problem I see with the game isn't the hardcoding, but the fact that mods have to be remade with almost every patch. I know this is pretty unavoidable since key files are changed, but many good mods have died or can never keep up with the patches =/. Overall I like the micro expansions, very cheap compared to what you get, for example, Spores new expansion which gives you 60 new parts (arms legs and crap...) . Sins actually got new units and upgrades, which made you rethink strategies and completely change some tactics. So great job SD/IC. Just wish there was a company like them for every other genre for pc games . And I agree, for being such an "incomplete" and "overpriced" game even after a yr, the reviews sure do tell a different story.

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Well me and sparda was playing SOTS or Sword Of The Stars I guess he just wants those features in Sins. It would be cool if there was ship builder for sins. Or complex technology tree to choose from and ultimately determine what you are in the game. Sin's is geared to be more fast paced, so im not sure if you can spend time creating ships when you being attacked by all sides. Hopefully in time with expansions it will be great game! Each patch and expansion seems to further the ability to mod and further enjoy this great product.

But, there was a issue in PC GAMERS that had a interview or preview on Sins development. I'm not sure who was interviewed but the person said it was going to be flexable in terms of modding. Known IPS like star trek or star wars was going to be easily made in this game. I just felt it was alittle misleading because at the start it seemed everything was lock down on ability to mod.

I bought the expansion and wait for others!

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Quoting Scudhawk,

reply 19

I think Sins is an excellent game, it's $10 cheaper than most games ............. And I agree, for being such an "incomplete" and "overpriced" game even after a yr, the reviews sure do tell a different story.

Sins is not 10$ cheaper, its a lot more than that it's about 2/3rd of the price we usually pay for our games. Thats the price it came out at.

Dont get me wrong, I love Sins, and I actually made a lot of publicity in France for the game. I even wrote a very positive review for it because I felt it was not known enaugh. The game seduced me, same for the way it was published and protected.

It was well worth its price, shure it cant technically cut it compared with some big budget super productions.. but then the intresting price compensated for that. Its a good game, fun to play (thats the most important) and its original, it may not take advantage of my high end graphic card, of my dual or quad core processor, it also could have more of a single player experience .. but what the hell, its a lot cheaper, we dont have stupid CD protections and smaller game studios that make good games doo need our support.

If the game cost 70$ when it came out it most certenly would not have had such good reviews !

The big superproduction games it was compared too now cost 5$, 10$ 20 at most and thats new from a store.

If I mention this its for the games own good, I dont care I already got them when they came out. But if today I as on the market for a strategy game what would I get ?

The expensive blockbuster that uses my hardware too its max and is super well known for 10$ ? Or a lighter game that is also reconned to be a good game but cost much less new, wont use the hardware at more than 50% of its capabilities and seems relatively unknown for 45$ ?

I'm just a little worried, maybe for nothing, but at one time I could happily recommend SoaSE as the strategy game to have, the one thats really worth its buck's. These days Its not quite so simple.

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I'm just a little worried, maybe for nothing, but at one time I could happily recommend SoaSE as the strategy game to have, the one thats really worth its buck's. These days Its not quite so simple.

thou' good point, the counter argument is.

Have a game come out that offer better gameplay(remember to include improvememts in sin due to patches)

imo thoose big blockbusters are all pretty much fail as the main focus is pretty battles and not gameplay/originality there is a reason games like SC is still played. the gameing industrys shift in focus from gameplay to visual from the late 90's and on have made the averege game a 1month toy that quickly looses it's glamour.

In the end it's like the real world - if a chick looks good you'll take her out, but if she is and airhead you just f... her and go get cigarets - a game has to look good for us to pick it up, but if the gameplay sux we'll move on, a year later we have not moved on. 1/1000 games are that good

further more, as i said in a previus post, i don'tt really consider the game *done* until all 3 mini x-packs are out, but as a gamer(in the rather hardcore sense of the term) i must say i love the factthat this game does not cater to the lowest denominator it has the potential to become one of the all time best multiplayer strat games and as long as they keep the level of support they have so far in trying to balance the game it's community should be growing!

a game(product) starts to loose it's value when it has reached it's peak, seeing the sales for this holliday season shows that this has not happend to Sins yet.

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Wow, what an obnoxious post (the OP, that is). SD/IC, you do know that people like this tend to be isolated from what I like to call "reality." So I agree with Annatar--too bad you even had to waste your time reading this thread.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 15

What??

Sins wasn't released early. It went out on time with exactly the features we (Stardock and GPG) had planned on. Would we have liked to have more diplomacy features? Sure. But we didn't have any firm idea of what they might have been. There weren't some set of features that we cut to make some arbitrary date.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I think that this post and the post by Craig right after it pretty sum up everything that has to do with the early release date and also adding extra "Free" content through patches.

Come on people...this is a great game and just because it doesn't have some features that you want in there now...doesn't mean that it won't be coming down the road. Who cares if it costs $10.00 here and there for a micro-expansion. IT'S TEN FRIGGIN' DOLLARS! If you can't afford to help SD out by spending $10 extra here and there, then you don't deserve to be called a gamer. That is part of the life of a gamer; having to spend some extra $$$$$ to get added content.

Hell, I'd rather spend $10 than $40, like all other expansions to games.

Again, quit being whiny azz babies, and enjoy a great product from a great company that continues to make life easier for the real gamers out there.

GOOD JOB SD/IC...keep up the awesome work and please disregard the posts like this one that basically amount to a big ole' pile of poop.

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To the Dev Team

Fix These Issues Already!