Jaga Telesin

Join Date 02/2008

[MOD/MAPS] "TrueSpace" for Sins

Realistic Stars and Galaxies are finally available

TrueSpace for Sins, is a new method of map generation for both solo and multiplayer games. It is both a set of randomly-generated maps to use for games, and a standardized method by which people can create their own TrueSpace galaxies with little effort.

TrueSpace creates much more realistic galaxies than the default method that came with the game, and can be used with Sins Plus by Uzii for some pretty varied and amazing results. It uses a very specific and logical method to generate Star systems, what can be found in them (and where), and how the galaxy is laid out for players.

One of the fundamentals to TrueSpace is that each player starts in their own star system (much like Humans started in our own), and branch out into the galaxy to wage war and meet other races via interstellar travel.

Features that have been built into TrueSpace are:

Planetary bodies found where you would expect them to be: Volcanic are close to the sun, Desert just beyond volcanic, Terran and other habitables are in the green belt, Ice are near the outer edges of the system, etc. TrueSpace uses a real "rings" system with the random generator for placing all planets.

Realistic numbers of planets and planetary types in each system. You won't ever find a system with 100 planets, or one with 10 total of which five are Terran. Most systems have between 9 and 16 planets/asteroids/other.

Balanced numbers of rare or valuable planets: even with Sins Plus, you only have a 50% chance of finding a Gas Giant (for example) in your system, and even then you would only see one.

All player (and AI) starting Home planets are also in the system's green belt (middle ranges), not on the outside edges.

The "starter planet" near the player's home Terran planet has been removed, due to disrupting the natural layout of a solar system. Each player (or AI) has a nearby asteroid to begin with, and has to explore or fight for the rest.

All inhabited star systems are defensible, due to a low number of possible jumps from each star (1-3) on average.

Dead star systems, with remnants of asteroids, asteroid belts, and other assorted junk. These can be total junkyards with hardly any metal, or be bountiful resources to fight over.

Chaotic "portal" star systems, with plentiful plasma storms, magnetic clouds, and random Wormholes. The wormholes lead only to other portal systems, ensuring a tactical advantage to those who use them, not a surprise attack into another player's system.

A slightly boosted level of both planetary bonuses (from 40% to 60%), and artifacts (from 15% to 25%).

Pirates have been moved to where you would expect to find them: on the outskirts of each system. There is also a version of the maps with pirates disabled.

Different versions of TrueSpace maps can have different planet densities to satisfy player tastes. There are low-density systems, normal-density systems, and high-density systems. Expect to find more or less planets in each type accordingly.

TrueSpace maps can be used with both Single Player and Multiplayer games.

Compatibility with Sins Plus from -Uzii- means more planetary types and bonuses throughout the galaxy.

Works with any mod. If the mod adds more planetary types, they will have to be added to the galaxy (map) file by hand, unless the types are from Sins Plus.

I've been working with feedback from Uzii on the system/maps, and will be relasing the initial package with both vanilla Sins and Sins Plus versions. Questions/comments/feedback are welcome. I'll try to keep this post updated with new information as the project progresses. If people would like screenshots of some TrueSpace galaxies, star systems, etc I would be glad to post them, just drop a comment requesting it.

As a sidenote - I took the liberty of actually playing one of my early TrueSpace maps that had 5 other AI opponents set on Fast gameplay mode. It was a very enlightening experience that led to some tweaks and balances I wouldn't otherwise have considered. And it was a very challenging game which lasted longer than I would have expected due to the difficulty level involved with TrueSpace and the inherent logistics of multiple star systems.

I haven't set an ETA yet on the map files, or on a documented system of how to build your own TrueSpace galaxies, but I would guesstimate within a week or so I can have it ready for public use.

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This sounds fantastic! More than a few people have expressed some dissatisfaction with Sins' unrealistic "galaxies". Compatibility with Uzii's Sins Plus mod is greatly appreciated as a lot of people (myself included) just can't go back to vanilla Sins. Can't wait to see how it turns out!

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

Pics ?

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i would like to see a galaxy map and a star map if possible, i want to see the lay out.

this sounds fantastic, great idea for a mod.

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Oh, very nice. Also nice to see a couple of modders from the TES community over here, makes me feel more at home.

Jaga, what types of files do you edit outside of the planet.entity files? Namely I'd like to make sure that my mod is compatible with yours; or alternatively, I can just wait until your mod comes out, check the file dates, and see what changes you made

Looking forward to this!

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I must admit, I've had the privilege of a sneak peek, and it is very nice. Feels like what the Sins' galaxies should've been based on to begin with.

Keep it up Jaga

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Now Uzii is just making me jealous

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Wow. You've done all that already? I'm really looking forward to trying it out. I've got one question, though. You made it clear that pirates hide at the outer edges of systems, and that they can be disabled, but I'm confused as to whether they're in every system or just a few. Also, would it not make sense for pirates to prefer barren "dead" systems or dangerous "portal" systems so as to best stay hidden from the authorities?

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I won't go back to vanilla either, Uzii has spoiled us.

I've even started sending him some brainstorming ideas for new planetary types.

Oh, very nice. Also nice to see a couple of modders from the TES community over here, makes me feel more at home.Jaga, what types of files do you edit outside of the planet.entity files? Namely I'd like to make sure that my mod is compatible with yours; or alternatively, I can just wait until your mod comes out, check the file dates, and see what changes you made Looking forward to this!

I don't edit any game files whatsoever. If you know me from the TES forums, you know compatability is a big thing for me. TrueSpace is 100% inside the .galaxy map file. The only changes outside that are for extra planet types, which Sins Plus makes for those people that use it.

I must admit, I've had the privilege of a sneak peek, and it is very nice. Feels like what the Sins' galaxies should've been based on to begin with. Keep it up Jaga

Glad to hear you like what you've seen and heard Uzii.

Other people have mentioned that "interstellar pirates" don't do a very good job of raiding a player's worlds most of the time. For that reason, on the pirate-enabled maps they have a base in every "home" system occupied by a player or AI. I could put a base in those out-of-the-way dead and portal systems, but the pirates there wouldn't do much good, and just pester explorers.

Pics ?

i would like to see a galaxy map and a star map if possible, i want to see the lay out.this sounds fantastic, great idea for a mod.

I put together a set of pics that are hosted on my server, and even went and made a movie of what it looks like when I browse through a newly-generated galaxy. The pics are in sequence of me looking around a couple of game maps, and the movie was made all in the same game.

TrueSpace Movie 1 (Xvid/Avi format, 21mb)

TrueSpace Screen 1
TrueSpace Screen 2
TrueSpace Screen 3
TrueSpace Screen 4
TrueSpace Screen 5
TrueSpace Screen 6
TrueSpace Screen 7
TrueSpace Screen 8
TrueSpace Screen 9
TrueSpace Screen 10
TrueSpace Screen 11
TrueSpace Screen 12
TrueSpace Screen 13
TrueSpace Screen 14
TrueSpace Screen 15
TrueSpace Screen 16
TrueSpace Screen 17
TrueSpace Screen 18

Keep in mind that the entire TrueSpace system is being tweaked and fine tuned right now. I am open to comments and suggestions from more experienced players, of course.

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As a bit of a side note for people interested in TrueSpace:

It will make you think, and actually use real strategy when playing. No more can you bunch up defenses at one choke point and create an "uber fleet" to crush everyone else. Now you actually have to plan ahead, design good defenses on multiple fronts in your star system, gather multiple capital ships each with a balanced support group and attack multiple enemy targets.

Due to the nature of the galaxy, capturing another star system is not a trivial matter, and often will require the help of teammates. The one game I played with older TrueSpace map settings ended up wiping the floor with my race, quite literally. I wasn't taking it seriously and set it on Fast mode just to see how it progressed, but the AI took to the individual star systems like a fish to water, and knew exactly how to use them to the best effect.

So having said that, TrueSpace isn't just for looks.

It does have an impact on gameplay and forces you to treat events and other players (whether real or AI) quite seriously.

I had considered doing some sort of Beta for TrueSpace, but based on my own gametime with it I am not sure it is necessary now. Opinions are welcome of course.

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Not to rain on the parade, but why is every system a linear slog of trade routes, with almost no branching at all, if you want to avoid chokepoints? If you want them to be somewhat reduced in terms of access, by all means restrict trade routes, but the situation is the same - you can still pile defenses at one or two planets and have a star system completely secured, since there's no phase lanes whatsoever...

On a similar note, this mod appears it'd work best with other gamebalancing mods as well, particularly the kind that change how research works. Given what I see, it's way too easy to dump research stations at the ass-end of some dead-end system where nobody would even find them, much less get to them.

Also, what's with the systems of nothing but spatial anomalies?

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Also, what's with the systems of nothing but spatial anomalies?

Try reading the first post.

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you only have a 50% chance of finding a Gas Giant (for example) in your system, and even then you would only see one.

Umm, Jupiter, check, that's one. Saturn, that's a second one. I suppose this means that you're counting Uranus and Neptune as ice planets and not gas giants? Isn't 50% with a max of 1 quite a bit on the low side for gas giants?

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Niiiice! So how long before we see it available for download?

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Actually, when I increase the distance and chances of a phase lane in a star system with the randomizer, it increases the number of lanes that touch the star. That is the #1 problem with trying to defend a system, seeing as you can't build defenses in the solar gravity well itself. You end up defending nearby planets that have lanes leading from the star. I would love to have a more "open" star system on average, but I found that trying to defend 4+ lanes was a logistical nightmare.

I think overall the fact that a system would look better with more lanes (aka "open") is overridden by the difficulty factor that presents itself when defense goes from 2 lanes to 4+. But I'm open to commentary and suggestions with regard to this.

On a similar note, this mod appears it'd work best with other gamebalancing mods as well, particularly the kind that change how research works. Given what I see, it's way too easy to dump research stations at the ass-end of some dead-end system where nobody would even find them, much less get to them.

How would you go about dumping a research station in a gravity well that can't be colonized? Only player systems have colonizable planets - the "dead" systems and "portal" systems are all misc planetary and anomalistic objects. None of those should be claimable, only capturable.

Also, what's with the systems of nothing but spatial anomalies?

Those are the "portal" systems which I briefly mentioned in the primary post. I tried to think of something that would go well with wormholes, and both the cloud and storm types fit the bill. Those are in there for window dressing only - to make the system with wormholes look more interesting instead of just a star and a few wormhole points. Plus they add a bit more to explore, and perhaps capture for small resource boosts.

All valid questions, thanks for asking them.

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you only have a 50% chance of finding a Gas Giant (for example) in your system, and even then you would only see one.Umm, Jupiter, check, that's one. Saturn, that's a second one. I suppose this means that you're counting Uranus and Neptune as ice planets and not gas giants? Isn't 50% with a max of 1 quite a bit on the low side for gas giants?

The reason I rarified the gas giants, was that Uzii currently has some decent resources that go along with that type. Being so rich in resources it should be as rare as 50%, as it equates to a lush planet (or better) in output. I'd be glad to have more present for realism, if Uzii considers tweaking the gains that go with them.

Niiiice! So how long before we see it available for download?

Should be a matter of a few days to a week, depending on changes that need to be made, and if someone wants to beta-test the map style for a couple of days. Obviously the randomizer is working just fine with it right now, but I am overly concerned about balance and playability, not to mention immersion. Once we're good on those three things, I'll gladly post them on the primary mod/map site with mirrors on my own server.

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After giving the pics posted a more in depth review I do agree that more phase lanes would be a definate improvement.

Perhaps if you make it branch out with more phase lanes the further away you are from the sun it would work better?

This way only the 1-3 planets right next to the sun would have phase lanes leading to the sun, and the ones further away from that would have more connections between each other but none to the sun. (Not sure if that would be easy to script, or not though) It'd make the the systems seem less liniar in terms of phase lanes, and more difficult to defend once you;ve "cracked" the shell of defense surrounding the sun.

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90% of the 'features' are repeats of the other features. This is nothing amazing; you simply bullshitted it through to make it look interesting.

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Only thing I'd like to see, is that you completely remove the 'clouds' around stars when at max view, so all that's left are the colored dots of the suns.

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This looks really great, I can't wait to give it a try! But can you change the actual size of the stars within the systems? The average star is over 10,000 times the size of our Earth. I was just wondering if it was possible. That coupled with its expanded gravity well would make a great place to house multiple space ports or whatnot whenever some one works it into a good mod.

Its just an idea though.

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Windexglow - That's where Uzii's planet types come in. It adds more variety into the mix so that it isn't all the same over and over again.

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I think overall the fact that a system would look better with more lanes (aka "open") is overridden by the difficulty factor that presents itself when defense goes from 2 lanes to 4+. But I'm open to commentary and suggestions with regard to this.After giving the pics posted a more in depth review I do agree that more phase lanes would be a definate improvement.Perhaps if you make it branch out with more phase lanes the further away you are from the sun it would work better?This way only the 1-3 planets right next to the sun would have phase lanes leading to the sun, and the ones further away from that would have more connections between each other but none to the sun. (Not sure if that would be easy to script, or not though) It'd make the the systems seem less liniar in terms of phase lanes, and more difficult to defend once you;ve "cracked" the shell of defense surrounding the sun.

I've tried tweaking the length of phase lanes, and the chance, and finally settled on low percentages for both, which keeps a minimal number of lanes connecting to the inner planets. There's only one other way to do it, which is to make sure that there are very few "hot" or "dry" planets (my first two solar ring distances). That decreases immersion a bit by making them present but almost always 1 in number.

I think a better way to address it, would be to find a way so that jumping out of a Star's gravity well into an adjacent planet space takes a while, so that defenders in the solar well can make it to your invading fleet in time. That way players can defend their Star's well, instead of the 3-4 planets the star branches to. I've tested a bit with larger physical distances in both the systems and the galaxy as a whole, and neither appeared to lengthen jump prep time at all.

90% of the 'features' are repeats of the other features. This is nothing amazing; you simply bullshitted it through to make it look interesting.

Please, tell me which "9 out of 10" features are repeats of others. I simply went through the list of enhancements I've done to a standard randomized galaxy map file and listed them out. If there are duplicate features that mean exactly the same thing I will of course remove them. Then again, I think you're just trolling and full of it, so I don't expect you to come up with intelligent suggestions. Several other modders have chimed in already with intelligent comments, none derogatory. Some of the features aren't true features, and are instead "strategy changes" that happen as a result of the random map style, which because they are beneficial I will claim as features. But nothing that I can see is a duplicate. So.. troll away.

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Only thing I'd like to see, is that you completely remove the 'clouds' around stars when at max view, so all that's left are the colored dots of the suns.

Not sure that's something that can be done within a .galaxy file. Essentially it's just map changes to the randomizer. What you are asking for sounds more to me like a mod change. Incidentally, those clouds are there when you start a new game in a random map (even a vanilla one), with just the sun as the center point. So it's pretty normal for Sins from what I can tell.

That also sounds like a mod change to me. Some mods change the size of the gravity well to make it more realistic. But from a physical size depiction, what you see is what you get. I haven't seen a mod yet that alters the size of the stars, but there might be one. It isn't something that TrueSpace will do though.

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If I would've had any idea that this sort of thing was possible to mod, I would've been working on it myself.

I always loved the logic behind MOO2 galaxies, and still have the hint book that shows all the charts and percentage chances that go into generating a galaxy.

The charts are neat enough you could use them in an RPG, or something.

I'm loving Sins, but the totally random 100 planet starsystems, with only a handful of planet types, kind of dulls down the eXploration X, for me.

It sounds very exciting, and I'm really looking forward to your release.

PS: Don't listen to everyone and start going crazy with earth-shattering mods. Just release your nifty map system, and leave the game itself intact. At least for now.

PPS: I did a bit of TES modding, myself. Since it was for Morrowind and not Oblivion, I bet nobody remembers me, though.

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Just watched the video. Looks really great. I've been waiting for a mod like this since I bought Sins. You need to release this as fast as possible

No, just kidding. Take your time and try to make it run as smooth as possible.

I also think that there should be more gas giants although they are very "powerful" planet with Sins Plus. In return you (or Uzii) could make the required tech to colonize them very, very expensive so that it's balanced again.

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In return you (or Uzii) could make the required tech to colonize them very, very expensive so that it's balanced again.

It is an expensive research, and level 6. If you want it increases, post in my thread to what you'd like it to be, if you haven't already.

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