xVoke

Join Date 02/2008

MP Unplayable..

Well, I've run out of ideas. I really enjoy Sins, and I want to dive into the multiplayer aspect of the game. But I've encountered a problem that's disrupting that. Before I explain, let me note that I've read the numerous threads on hosting issues, opening ports, router issues, P2P protocol, etc etc. My problem seems to be of a different breed.

I can use ICO. I log in. My displayed ping is about 30ms. I try to host/join a game (doesn't matter which), and here's where the problem starts -- extreme lag spikes. We're talking massive packet loss. I've been doing most of this testing joining games as hosting a game makes it unplayable for all participants. I notice the connection issues during the setup screen. It lags when I change my faction. It lags when I change my team, (upwards of 20 seconds) etc etc. The chat is just fine (which I assume is still ICO). All the while my displayed ping is never above 100ms.

The game starts, and instantly my ping goes from an average of below 100ms to upwards of 5,000ms. Then these numbers jump back and forth. It stutters every 20 seconds. The only thing I can think of is I'm getting massive packet loss (or lack of sending a steady stream). So I started tweaking.

I enabled the ports/app through the Windows FW. I tried disabling it all together. I tried changing the MTU size. I called my ISP, and my connection's fine. No P2P restricting, no bandwidth throttling, my speeds are on target (6mb down, 400kb/s up), and they don't restrict the ports required by Sins, or ICO - 6000, 6112. I feel it's the upstream on my end.

I've run out of ideas. I really want to experience the multiplayer, but for the last 3 days I've tried everything I can think of short of getting a new ISP. I've reformatted -- still the same problem. I'm starting to come to the sad conclusion that I just can't play Sins online with my current ISP.

If anyone had any possible idea for a solution that works short of getting a new ISP, I would be forever in your debt.

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Have you tried lowering your sin's graphics? I believe sins handles graphic-loading as lag.

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I've tried lowering them all the way, or putting them on max - the video settings don't seem to matter. Thank you though for your input.

I also don't see how the graphics load would be relevant when I'm already experiencing the lag in the setup screen before the game (ie, 20 seconds just to change my faction or team/icon?)

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Any background tasks? Although I highly doubt a program would have this much impact on a game, it might be possible.

Does this happen in single player?

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Nope, I've reduced all the background tasks/processes to a bare minimum. This doesn't happen in single-player, as I can run the game for hours with decent size battles with no strain on the CPU or the GPU. The game runs pretty smoothly.

I think it just has to do with my ISP/connection. Maybe my modem? I reformatted a couple of hours ago, and I'm back at square one. No program/background task that would cause this I think.

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You live on/near North America, right? Last solution I can think of is you're too far away from the hosts, which are mainly North America with some Europeans mixed in.

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Yep, I'm located in Northeast Connecticut. Metrocast is my ISP.

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You mentioned windows firewall, etc. It might be an obvious question but I am assuming you checked your ROUTER's firewall as well?

All else failing try running Sins on another comp while at your house. If you don't have another comp borrow a freinds. If your freinds dont have any computers able to run Sins, take yours to their house and try it.

Reason being is to be sure its an ISP/Router type of issue or if its just your PC.

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How are you connected? Wireless or wired? Are you using a router or just a modem? What's your ISP? Do you have any sort of QoS setting (if you don't know the answer then you're probably good).

Could just be a messed up router/modem setting though, have you tried reformatting the router/modem/whatever you use or upgrading the firmware?

Best of luck getting this figured out, no fun at all to be stopped by technical problems.

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Well, I'm not on a router, just a modem. For the sake of the testing, I turned off the windows firewall, (not sure about QoS setting). I have a Motorolla Surfboard 5120, so I suppose I could try updating the drivers for it.

I'll give it a go.

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Managed to have my ISP monitor my signal/ping my modem while I was connected in a 6 player game (I apologize to those players). She said my packets were fine, getting an average round trip of 45ms.... and the kicker?

My ping in game was 2,000 milliseconds, and I was causing everyone to lag out. Maybe this is a problem beyond just my ISP/modem. But I just reformatted. The system is squeaky clean. A bios problem, maybe. An OS problem, perhaps. This is driving me absolutely insane.

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I had trouble hosting games until i realized that my modem is also a router. Might be a good idea to double check the brand/model.

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

Assuming this is a global problem and not restricted to sins and sins only, you might have not done much by reformatting. If you weren't up to date to start with, you could have been vulnerable to an exploit and simply reinfected yourself after the reinstall.

Try running netstat in command while connected, your ping behaves like saturation, which is absurd, but if you've got a bunch of spyware shit clogging your lines or something, it will show up. It's a horrifying thought, that would be a lot of spyware...

I haven't heard of the modem before, will research.

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not sure about QoS setting

QOS should not come into play unless the machine is generating a lot of traffic all the time. Really QOS is a way to prioritize certain network packets which is real useful for time sensitive data like VOIP. If you run any other background programs like MSN or Yahoo chat, close those. Close down any web pages you have open too just in case they are fetching data repeatedly.

Updating the driver is the best thing to do which you say you are already going to try.

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Well, the only driver they have available for it is the USB driver, and I tried that before with the same result. And this is not a global problem. I've played other P2P games, and client-host games such as your general online FPS, and WW2OL ie, just fine. Those games play just as expected.

It's just Sins. I think that gaming karma has realized I've found one RTS game I've truly come to like, and denying me the option. Piss off enough RTS games with your constant FPS and flight simulation gaming, and they'll have their revenge in a cruel way. I'm at a complete loss. No spyware, adware, or any infection of any kind. Again, no processes except any that are necessary.

I think I'll have to admit defeat here shortly. =[

*EDIT* I do have another computer here that I could perhaps fire up Sins on and test to see if it's perhaps my system. I'll give it a go tomorrow.

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

I'll be on this weekend if anyone needs some help connecting / hosting, and or just to test.

I am in Pennsylvania.

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

Your modem has a html page to mess with settings on it somewhere, possibly 192.168.0.101, but I didn't find the manual online. It doesn't state a firewall in the documentation I did find, but there might be one in there anyway. Some of them are rather temperamental.

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Just a thought here, but I'm starting to wonder if the huge lag spikes (I have experienced them as well on an extremely fast university ethernet connection) are due to hardware latency on the host's end.

For example, if the host is a fairly slow computer, and he zooms into an enemy's territory early on in the game, before all of the textures are loaded on his end, his computer's CPU and hard drive will thrash away, most likely lagging out the entire game for all who are connected.

I had thought this was my primary latency issue, but I also have pretty high latency (200 - 300 ms) on local connection games where the host is an extremely fast computer. The "network" section of the menu doesn't report the latency as being this high (it reports it at less than 10ms on the local LAN), but there is a palpable delay between issuing orders and getting a response from my computer. It feels like about a half a second.

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the_Monk

Join Date 01/2008

+222

People, please make sure any/all "hardware" firewalls (on modems/routers) like "SPI" etc. are disabled. They're not much use on such puny hardware devices anyway and usually only serve to "fragment" game-data and increase latency.

@ Iantis

In case you haven't read my reply to you in the other thread I'll copy and paste it into here.

The HOST does nothing but "synchronize" the data between the clients. Every client runs the entire simulation on their own machine, therefore the slowest machine in the mix will cause slowdown for everyone.

the Monk

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Even though you are not using a router, be aware that some modems have router-like settings. If you can log into your modem with an ip address similar to http://192.168.0.1 then you should definitely do it and take a look at what's going on there. You might have some firewall settings or restrictions built into the modem that you can change.

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Take a look at your NIC card. I don't believe this is a firewall issue since you are in fact able to connect. If you are seeing a 5,000ms response, and the ISP is not, I'd think it is something between your NIC card and the modem. Turn off auto and hard set it to 100M or whatever type of NIC you got. Might be retransmitting packets if it is having trouble auto-negotiating.

What other P2P games have you tried? I just can't believe this is a Sins problem because we're talking about problems at the network layer. Something strange is definitely happening, thats for sure.

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I had this same problem, I replaced my cable modem and it fixed everything (After I spent 6 months trying everything there was to try, I had the cable guy over ever weekend trying things). Test it out by borrowing a friends cable modem or family so you dont have to buy one, or you can buy one and just return it if its not the problem.

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Reply #14 suggests that the Cable Modem is connected to the computer using USB. The Surfboard has both Ethernet and USB ports so I recommend connecting it via Ethernet. There may be contention issues with other devices using USB. If I have misinterpreted the post and you are using Ethernet, it can't hurt to try USB to help isolate the problem.

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Managed to have my ISP monitor my signal/ping my modem while I was connected in a 6 player game (I apologize to those players). She said my packets were fine, getting an average round trip of 45ms.... and the kicker?My ping in game was 2,000 milliseconds, and I was causing everyone to lag out. Maybe this is a problem beyond just my ISP/modem. But I just reformatted. The system is squeaky clean. A bios problem, maybe. An OS problem, perhaps. This is driving me absolutely insane.

First of all what you really need to do is trace your connection between you and the host of the game. ICO is just a portal. Having a support rep at your ISP ping your connection or perform a trace route is not going to show anything wrong with your connection other than to your ISP. If the ISP is telling you there is no packetloss or high latency in their test then you need a trace of data flow to the host of the game to find out exactly where the problem is occuring and debug from there. Chances are what you're seeing is just massive packetloss. Although it does sound strange that you would be getting it in every game you join or host unless the problem was on your end or with your ISP. I have another friend who suffers the same problem or was having a simular problem rather and was helping him with it the other night. He has problems even staying in a game but it is due to his connection and a physical problem with his line causing massive packetloss. Being on the same network does have advantages when testing so it's easier to rule out the ISP in this case

Do a trace to the host and bounce a bunch of packets off it and see what it does. If the packetloss is occuring on your network then you should contact your ISP and send them the data. That will force them to take a look into the problem if there is on on your end or with the ISP.

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I'd agree that this game has an awful Online component. I'm a network engineer by trade and of all the online gaming systems, this is the ONLY one I've not been able to make work. No issues with Battle.net, Firaxis' Online Lobby, EA's ugly stepchild, Steam, Relic Online, et al.

I and one of my of my friends purchased this game and neither of us can host.

I have an enterprise grade firewall (a Cisco PIX) at home and do not enable the SP2 firewall, while he has a D-Link NAT router - an older one, but now with the most current firmware. I have the more powerful machine of the two of us, and the fatter Internet pipe, so I normally host any games we play. I looked up which ports this game requires (6000, 6112) and added the access-list and static translations to my PIX for them....and I get the "Hosting Failure" error when trying to host. He punches the ports in his router and he gets the same thing. He enables uPNP and same thing...he finally DMZ's his box and gets the same thing. WTF?

At this point, the ONLY way we can play is by me getting him a copy of Cisco's software VPN client, and having him create a VPN tunnel into my firewall and playing in LAN mode. Works great. Won't ever be able to play with any of you, but for the two of us, works just fine.

The Stardock folks spent a great deal of effort into creating a fantastic game and crippled it with horrible netcode.

Shame, really.

Gu1do

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What is the cache on your HD? (if any)

Thats one major performance hit that no one ever thinks about. If you are using an old hard drive on a newer system your hard drive has to seek every sector of information that you are trying to load if you have low cache or low memory.

Even with 4 GB of memory I've seen a HD with no or little cache greatly degrade preformance on because of the XP handles its resources. (Identical to the what you describe.)

Best of luck

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