Bovi has the right idea. It definitely requires quick clicking, but the Antoraks have the advantage. When a ship is phased, it can't even be selected, which means the Vasari player can already have his mouse hovering over the Dunov icon to hit it right when it comes out, while the TEC player will have to select the Dunov, then the ability, then click on the target.

As for antimatter, I've managed to keep 3 capital ships almost completely locked down long enough to destroy 2 of them (I mis-clicked on a passing fighter wing so one managed to jump out) without worrying about antimatter. It can't be done for too long, but it can be done. And with 2 Antoraks they should be able to do it long enough.

12 seconds for either 400, 800 or 1200 shield points restored.
Thats 33 66 or 99 damage per second (coming through to the shields) that you need for a single dunov that spams the ability to outshoot it. (about 4, 7 or 10 frigates to do that kind of damage without shield mitigation)
Mititagtion will be at that amount of ships focus firing at least be at 50%, so you need at least 8, 14 or 20 frigates to counter the ability. Innate shield regeneration is 3 per second (and more as it levels up) so you have to counter that aswell, since the longer the shields are up the longer the ship has time to regenerate them.

I´m not going to take a stance here as i have not yet seen this tactic, so i don´t know how it works.
But here are some numbers so you people arguing can support your points.
These are actual damage done to ships (armor classes already included) before shield mitigation (if its shields) or armor (if its hull) come into play:

1 Scout does 1,5 damage (2 Supply) [antiheavy damage]
1 LRM does without upgrades 8,25 damage against capships (4 Supply) [antimedium damage]
1 Light Frigate does without upgrades 6,65 damage against caps (5 Supply) [antiheavy damage]
1 Kodiak does 13,5 damage (10 supply) [composite damage]

1 Vasari torpedo Frigate does 13 damage (6 Supply) [capitalship damage]
1 Vasar Light Frigate does 5,25 damage (7 Supply) [antiheavy damage]
1 Vasari heavy cruiser does 15 damage (12 Supply) [composite damage]
all values per second

This is the damage done to caps, other ships are of course different as they possess other armor classes, all capships use "CAPITALSHIP" Armor

his arrogance aside.

Thats not exactly Fair at all

Here is a report

1 Level 3 Marauder and 1 Level 4 Marauder

VS

1 Level 3 Dunov and 1 Level 4 Dunov

Dunovs win without a loss.

13 missile frigates in FP cant beat the same Dunovs.

the One test where the Dunovs fail,

13 missile frigates against 2 level 1 Dunovs. At level 1, the Dunovs are hardly average capital ships, and while they lost in a fight that early, they scale horrendously in terms of cost efficiency. This test doesn't take into account that you can start the game with a Dunov at level 3 for free.

We didn't get to try Evacuators yet. We need to test resource quantity versus the level 3s and above. We all know Capital Ships are grossly inefficient at level 1.

Frankly Schod is the one with analysis issues. Because FP is more important in games past the extreme early phase.

Also I saved a replay; but we will make/save more with better/more tests.

Also the Frigates cost more if you count the 2 labs required to build them. Which Granted isn't much or a big issue. But Timing is, and by that point how would you ever see 2 level 1s? you will see a level 3 and a level 2 versus your level 3 whatever and some frigates.

More importantly, since FP is a finite limit and resources aren't, it really needs to be balanced. (Resources increase over time, FPs shouldn't...)

Yeah, but there is a very finite limit on the number of times you can upgrade a planet. Once for asteroids, two or there times for most planets. And, quite simply, the number of LRM frigates required to take out the double/triple dunov comes with a very hefty price tag in and of itself. Furthermore, trying to take out Dunov's in that manner requires a completely different fleet composition than for any other setup.

Yes, you need to adjust fleet composition to match your targets -- bring more flaks in against carrier heavy foes, for example -- but the Dunov imbalance lies in the fact that it requires far more ships (in fleet costs) and those ships have to be chosen specifically to take out the Dunov as opposed to other vessels.

Sure, LRM frigates are nasty all around... but not nasty enough to forgo capship support, unless you have Dunov only opponents running around, at which point your entire fleet has to change to be able to harm, much less defeat, the Dunovs.

All things said... we've run tests proving our point; you haven't. In fact, they've run tests using every strategy you've suggested, and those tests support our position. Either run some actual tests of your own for empirical evidence, or stop jawing nonsense at us.



Upgrading capships isn't all that expensive, fleet points is cheaper... but not by a whole lot.

Eh, feel free to test it with gauntlet -- he's the one with the micro skills, not I.

thats who I already tested it with.

you're refering to something else, gaunt insisted that we do a 2 antorak, no frig test. I told him that without frig support the antoraks would definitively fail, I was right.

odd, that seems to be a pattern.

I ran a test with gaunt. the test proved that in a 1v1 of equal resource and FP spending the dunovs would fail doing a measly 30% damage to a group of LRMs (9 survived of 13). what you guys are toting as conclusive tests are wildly innacurate swayed points.

I have remained quite calm, save when people start denying my well constructed tests in favor of something that has absolutely no viable standing. now as for my "vile nonsense", who is the one who wrote a whole 1 paragraph flame? bovi calm down, we dont need you shredding this thread.
bovi, if you really want to push the point that I've degraded the argument, find a case in which I openly insulted someone. thing is I havent done so. all I've done is the occasional mock of people's test (hence the gaunt trachiotemy pun) but thats far from anything derogatory or controversial. ok fine, there was one place in which I insulted Gaunt, but that was incredibally mild, I was insulted openly first, and I even reciprocated with qualifying his insult. so that hardly can be counted as a "temper tantrum"

people have raised a point, I'm trying to adress it and see what/if theres anything wrong. my tests which are far more concrete and thorough, have shown no concern for any imbalance, let alone the frankenstein of a problem that you guys see. I even put myself at several minor disadvantages (13 instead of 14 LRMs, letting him use fighters even though normal players either go 2 bombers or 1 of each etc.) that could easily have added up to my failure. when I succeeded I claimed that there is no valid concern for peoples points as is, nothing I've said here is personal. I'm just pointing out that people are clinging to "bad science", poor testing methods that accentuate their own point.

what is needed here is twofold: one you guys need to stop taking my posts so personally when I have never ever said anything to that effect. I've had enough of being unfairly bombarded with ad hominem nonsense when you guys cannot salvage your own point. Second: you all need to refine your tests, yes its more likely to find 3 level 3 dunovs going at it, but to justify that an "equal" counter would be equal only in fleet points is bullballs. make your tests better and then I'll consider their validity. until then your points are completely unfounded.

what you guys have now is smoke in the wind, I gave gaunt the chance to prove to me that its a solid issue, and all that accomplished was a confirmation of my own theory: that your variables are far too constricted to even resemble solid evidence.

bovi, I expect a three page single space typed apology, signed by at least three basketball pros and a dead musician monkey for monday. now, if thats all, class dismissed.

almost exactly, theres also the issue of cost in which LRMs excell.

Also taking into account that in mid-game (before FP is maxed out), FP can't the only consideration, as FP upgrades are still available. Putting resources into that + producing more LRMs to compare reasonably to the resource cost of leveled Dunovs brings them into a favorable position. Basically, FP for FP, no -- LRMs don't compare. But when it matters, credits aren't unimportant, and the tri-dunovs will be pricey. Pricey enough, in fact, that the LRM player will have the resources to plunk down a FP upgrade, giving him more FP to play with than the Dunov player. With those extra FP, use the remaining resources to fill out your LRM fleet, which, while not having the same FP value as the Dunovs, is comparable in *real* cost.

At least, that's how I read his stuff. (and, quite frankly, it makes sense -- FP is the most important, but the other resources aren't *unimportant* at the level you're describing, as upgrades are likely still around)

Because he's being a tard? There are real concerns with the dunov, they aren't whether or not it can be defeated by really stupid fleet compositions. Instead of bickering with schod over whether poorly chosen tests are fair because he didn't get to spend twice as much money, he should admit that they really suck as examples and get better ones. Stupidity by choice is irritating.

And no I can't test them myself, it will be another six hours or so before this idiotic connection is stable enough for games.

I don't think bovi can help making stupid posts, why bother jumping on him for them?