Strattegi makes a good point, but running through systems and looking for magnetic clouds isnt going to work against competent players (assuming the map allows for anything but magnetic storms haha) And when it comes time to Attack you wont have that option.

Unlike phase-out the Dunovs get to continue firing while they are regenning, whereas your phase-out solution reduces A. firepower and B. mobility - a serious risk for the advantage.

I'm sorry that we are not discussing every possibility in one thread, but I havn't consistently seen people using 3 Sovas or 3 Antoraks, I have noticed more and more the Dunov combo, because it isn't Nearly as weak as the other extremes. The phase missiles dont bypass enough to make a serious effect, remember my first post?

Tech Level 3 (all techs) 200 FP
Desolator Level 4
Desolator Level 3
Carrier Level 3 (for the heal and to keep those Dunov's from having bombers)
12 Vasari Missile Frigates

Tech Level 3 (all techs) 160 FP
Dunov Level 4
3 More Dunovs at Level 3

Couldn't kill a Single Dunov, came close, but couldn't quite get there. That is ridiculous that a tailored fleet with more fleet supply couldn't kill ONE enemy ship. How much more Phase Missile Ships do I need? Like I said I'm betting 4 Desolators might be able to deal with 3 Dunovs.

The Marza by the way will really hurt those battleships, as their fire power is distributed to the sides and such, the Marza is entirely upfront with its firepower, I think you will find the Marza is a good anti-capitalship ship. The V-Battleship isn't much different than a Kol, and the Kol will also be generally creamed by a Marza. But that is fine I'm not complaining about that, its as it should be.

Frankly If you are bringing 2 Dunovs to a fight with another capital and you specifically never use the regen on each other, I don't think you will have nearly as much difficulty as you are describing. You could always keep your 2 dunovs back a bit and throw the Kol or what have you forward, with a screen of ships with it, anyone racing in to get at the Dunovs will face maximum enemy fire power/DPS and then start to be hit in the rear, making them at a serious disadvantage once you finish with a single Dunov. Frankly that is what a support ships weakness is supposed to be- that it needs protection and proper placement, Two Dunovs don't need that just fly them forward and huck em at the enemy. As long as you are moderately micro-ing their regen you can do that.

Whatever, increase the anti-matter and cooldown, whatever they think is best, as long as it works to Normalize the effectiveness of multi-dunovs

My suggestion in the other thread was to
1. Reduce the amount healed when a Dunov regenned another Dunov. Perhaps 60% of the original value, they would have to spend more antimatter that way and could be more easily overpowered by masses of enemies.

Other solutions:
2. Reduce shield mitigation of the target to 0% upon receiving the shield boost, restoring itself over time or when taking damage as usual. Would then require the target to withdraw or lose its extra shields more quickly. Currently they are at about 60% mitigation when given about 1000 extra shield points, equalling 2500 extra hit points.
3. Let the shield restore take a couple of seconds. Disable the shields of the target while powering them up. This allows tearing down the hit points in the meantime, and again will require the ship to withdraw or face severe damage.
4. Reduce the shields of the Dunov and give them additional hit points instead.

I think I would prefer solution 1 or 2.

But see above for how that pretty much kills the usefulness of Dunovs. They still need to be fairly close to use the ability, and if they can't restore each other's they'll just get priority targeted because nobody in their right mind would leave such a defenseless ship alive long enough to regen other ships' shields

You go from (in theory) having a ship that's too powerful in groups, to a ship that's for the most part useless in groups against anyone who has the common sense to realize that even 5 Dunovs won't be able to do anything to each others' shields, while they can keep that Kol alive for eternity If the nerf bat is destined to bonk the Dunov, that would be too extreme.

right now this so called "imbalance" is no less a myth than beta 5. wait until more people (with far more divergent strategies) attempt this before you start crying wolf, then begin shooting.

Weve been testing these dunov combos versus fleets since beta 3, Ron originally mentioned this too a looong time ago.

Instead of 2 lines of dismasal go test it. 2 Dunovs Versus any equal supply of fleet supply, and both forces controlled by humans. You will see what we mean. I think at the end of the day, I've played too much to just 'cry wolf' for nothing. The game has a wonderful balance overall, This is so far the only thing that I've seen that is glaringly wrong.

That and well, Being able to exceed fleet supply by hundreds with the Dark Fleet lol, but thats more of a bug I assume.


I'll remember to wait for more people to play before I give feedback on a possible imbalance in a public pre-release game play Beta. That certainly sounds best alright. You are shooting down arguments with nothing more than a remark, using the word 'myth' to invalidate legitmate concerns.

Sure those concerns may be wrong, but they are presented in a legitamate and reasonable debate. You on the other hand use a simple word and sentence, address no specifics and simply 'wave away' everyone else's views.

His point doesn't sound as if we have more time to test and report, its that we should just ignore it and somehow it will be proven not a problem in time.


Special Thank You to Annatar for being taking the time to make an informed agrument.

Why don't we repeat every test and then some tonight Paradoxnt and post a replay.

I've already shown with MUCH support that this worry is nearly a complete invalidity. I'm just saying that many of the opposers to Thrawn's belief in beta 5 (and consequent dismissals) are turning around and crying "unb4llenc3d!!!" to the devs with minimal support.

its the noobish balance complaints that I knew were never going to stay away.

people get a little carried away on these forums, jumping into ideas before theres any solid proof that theres some issue. yes, I admit that there might be a problem, but two pairs of two people testing both the duh-stupid and the ... (we have no clue what they are) strategies is just pointless, certainly isnt a means for saying "BROKENZ!!!"

Is there a recording of this triple Dunov strategy? Wouldn't a recording or a save game go a long way in solving this debate? Then someone could prove or disprove the argument.

Gaunt your theory is all very nice, but I've not heard yet of one person using a decent strategy to counter the T-Ds in practice. come back with some better evidence (a replay! loverly) and then maybe we might consider your point valid. until then you're the vast minority against those who dont believe theres an issue, and those who arent sure one way or another.

While I see the point you're making, psychoak, their argument is about 3 Dunovs. Which does increase the complexity of the situation (and keep it increasing as you add more Dunovs) since now you need to deal with 2 extras while killing one, but (especially in the case of the Antorak) it should still be quite doable. An extra shield restore (2 restores instead of 1) also manages to keep up with a larger number of LRMs and buying the Dunovs more time to do (what little) damage they do.

In short.. we do need a replay

exactly how would you suggest using the phase out ability, for the replay I will aim to make I want to use the strategy you prefer.

So-

Phase out the same Dunov/s constantly, or phase out differing ones, or what?